Germany, France Working on Plan to Avoid Iraq War

Actually, many pacifists had accepted Serbia bombings, because they saw refugees and killed civilians in Kosovo. TV has a strong influence on the people.

But unless those people are stupid, they know that Hussein treats his people not any better, and arguably worse, than Milosevic was treating non-Serbs. So why don't they care about that, and why don't they think "ok then it's ok for U.S. to get rid of Hussein", like they did Milosevic? Is it because (a) Iraqis (unlike "ethnic Albanians") aren't racially white-skinned, so Europeans don't care if they are oppressed by a dictator? (b) The U.S. President this time (Bush) does not lean left, like the previous U.S. President (Clinton) did? (c) Iraqi atrocities are not shown on TV like Serb atrocities were, so Europeans don't care very much?

None of these answers are very good. None of these answers make the French/German position look very good or make me respect it. All of these answers are either stupid, hypocritical, or small-minded. But, I don't know what other answers there can be.

And yes, many people don´t think much about politics. They really thought they could prevent a war (war, horrible, killing children, mothers, destroying homes!!!) by voting for Schröder.

I see. Well, part of my point is that many of these "anti-war" folks are simply stupid. If a German person thinks that he gets to influence the actions of the American military, by voting for example (in German elections), he is stupid. I'm glad we agree.

At least they feel morally superior because they don´t kill people.

But this is also stupid. Keeping Hussein in power kills lots of people, and the "anti-war" folks know it (unless they are truly stupid).

I mean, all I'm really saying here is that the French/German "anti-war" position is either stupid or hypocritical or disingenous, which makes me confused (because so many people seem to think it is based on "morals" or "principles" or "leftism"). It sounds like you basically agree with me.

They hate him like we all do, but they want a peaceful change - and under no circumstances a war.

But (unless they are stupid) they know that there won't be any change "peacefully", because Saddam doesn't want to leave.

Well, we all have a right to care what the other nation does

I probably should have been more clear. Of course we all have a right to "care" what another nation does. Everybody has opinions about everything. I am saying that there is a difference between

1. having an opinion about what the U.S. does, and

2. trying to prevent the U.S. from doing something.

It's ok to have opinions, but trying to prevent us from attacking, that is a different story. Germany (nor France) has no business doing that, and that is why I am angry, frustrated, and confused.

Generally there is a clear concept in my mind, and most people I know, that some things are My Business, but other things are None Of My Business. I am getting the impression that many Europeans, at least in France and Germany, do not understand this concept. Suppose I have a friend who is going to marry a woman, and I do not like the woman. Of course I can have an opinion about the woman. But to try to stop my friend from marrying the woman? That is None Of My Business. Opinions are one thing, but "butting in" is another. France and Germany are butting in, and I'm sick of it. But more importantly, I do not understand why. Just saying "pacifism" does not explain it. The desperation is out of proportion with "pacifism". Something deeper is going on, and I wish I knew what.

So, why did you care about Kosovo?

I didn't. And don't. You will have to ask Mr. Clinton and especially Ms. Albright. I did not think the U.S. had any business bombing Yugoslavia. There was no threat to U.S. citizens from Milosevic whatsoever. (Unlike from Hussein.)

Not only Americans have the right to judge what US soldiers do.

Everybody has the right to "judge", I guess, but in the end, only Americans have the right to control what U.S. soldiers do. Through our democratic government, by voting.

German and French citizens don't get to vote in our government. They are not American citizens. It seems like many of them think that they are, somehow.

What I said and say is right. The German foreign intelligence has given these evidences of WMD to the US, too. And some of them were presented by Powell, too.

I am sure you are right. It is still possible that they are trying to make themselves look good because they are afraid that there is a deeper scandal which could be uncovered.

For my government (and I´m not a follower of it) I can say that it has not helped him with weapons, not only because it´s illegal here.

I agreed with you that probably your government hasn't. But there is still the question of whether German firms have done. And how much help they had from individuals in the government. As official policy? Probably not. At least, it would be shocking.

But who knows. I still don't see how to explain the German government's desperation in this matter any other way. So I am keeping an open mind. Thank you for your correspondence, Best,

But, I don't think you'll disagree that the "peace movement" in Germany, in the US, and everywhere else I can think of today, is a leftist movement.

It is a movement participated in mostly by people who are (on other issues) "leftists", sure.

What I am saying is that it is not always consistent with leftism, as such. That so-called "leftists" who join the "peace" movement in saying Leave Saddam Alone are being inconsistent and/or hypocritical and/or unthinkingly knee-jerk. I think we understand each other.

It is that philosophy that is the driving force in German politics.

The philosophy of knee-jerk America-Should-Never-Be-Allowed-To-Attack-Anyone-Or-Defend-Itself-Or-Even-Look-Out-For-Its-Own-Interests'ism. In short, knee-jerk anti-Americanism.

Yes, I agree. That is what I'm complaining about. ;-)

So, if it helps you to understand his motivation, ignore the "leftist" label. It's distracting you.

I agree. I understood things a little better when I started doing just what you advise, and ignoring the "leftist" label - i.e. when I understood that the true driving force here was, in practice, knee-jerk anti-Americanism. Best,

America, the only country in the world where many people speak of "Judeo-Christian" values, and not just as a figure of speech, either. Like most Europeans, most Germans are atheists or only nominally believers.

Yes. Americans tend to make a clear distinction between right and wrong, good and evil. Judeo-Chris. values teaches us this. Europeans with their more secular world view, tend to grasp to notions of moral relativism. I call it moral paralysis.

Michael81Dus is one of us. He has the unenviable position of trying to explain why his country is doing what it is, while opposing those very positions. He's taken an enormous amount of abuse here for being a German (not from you) and still sticks it out.

My hat's off to him.

I don't really know what the author's contention was, but I'm not naive enough to believe that all nations base their actions on pure noble intentions.

I didn't think so, sorry if I gave that impression.

Leaving aside the anti-American slant in the article, there may well be a point worth pursuing in there. What are Europe's biggest problems?

(1) Lack of dynamism. The French finance minister admitted as much a couple of days ago at the World Economic Forum in Davos, when he conceded that Rumsfeld's "Old Europe" was on target.

(2) A lopsided age pyramid. More and more pensioners being supported by too few people of working age.

(3) Both the bureaucracy and the welfare state are out of control. A parasitical class of public servants preys on taxpayers. Businesses don't hire in the upturn because they can't get rid of workers easily enough in the slump.

(4) Because of (1) through (3) above, there is insufficient capital to continue funding the welfare state, and more importantly, not enough money to invest in innovative technologies or to do basic scientific research, both areas in which the U.S. excels.

Tough choice facing Europe right now: admit that the current way of doing business is a failure, grit your teeth and start the long hard slog, or... look for outside help. Where is that help going to come from?

After having sunk twelve gazillion five hundred trillion dollars and forty-five cents into Europe in the past century, especially in reconstruction and providing for the European defense against the USSR after WW II, the United States is understandably reluctant to keep pouring money into the continent indefinitely.

Nor is there the slightest prospect that young, enterprising Americans will want to emigrate to Europe in the millions to inject a boost of dynamism and reshape the age pyramid.

It just so happens, however, that there is a region not too far away which will gladly provide both capital and an endless supply of young immigrants! (Some strings are attached but who wants to look a gift horse in the mouth.)

Am I making sense at all? The European hunger for capital and young immigrants may well turn out to be the unspoken reason for the otherwise inexplicable opposition to American policies.

The article you posted is much too long to read on screen. And in fact, just reading the summary tells me that it is just a sophisticated leftist conspiracy theory.

All this is just a way to keep the euro from becoming the currency of choice of OPEC, lessening the importance of the dollar and the US? I don't think anyone would be thinking about the euro/dollar battle when we find a dirty bomb in Times Square, or a VX-filled UAV heading for Washington DC. That's what this war is about.

I didn't see any prominent monetary economists listed in the sources, so I'm uncertain how this article would be received by the experts. But one thing I caught in the addendum is that if the euro were to become the OPEC currency, the US would have to run a trade surplus, so that we could buy euros to buy oil.

That would mean that we would either would have to really cut back on our imports - and not buy German cars, French telecom equipment, Japanese VCRs, etc. - and/or really start pumping out our own exports. And I don't think the Euros or the developing nations really want that.

(And the people in this country that would be happy at such a prospect are the Buchanan-types.)

Besides, the euro has the disadvantage of being hooked to some bad economies that have fewer prospects for long-term health than the US's does. Does OPEC want that?

Anyway, it's pointless to posit these questions. The piece's author just wants to come up with a more complex way of saying that Americans are all greedy and all they care about is the almighty dollar.

And, no, I'm not going to go back and read the whole thing.

You got a point about that. Any government-led push to get the age pyramid reversed in europe would be met with a scream as a neo-facist attempt to put females in the Kinder Kueche Kirche place. Because, frankly, that is what it would take to get more euro-yung'ns to outnumber islamo-yung'ns.

All I was doing was to offer some alternate theory as to why the Europeans were so against the war in Iraq and why the mainstream press insists on insulting the intelligence of the American viewer and not throwing this factor in the debate. Yes, I gained it from leftist sources, but read the argument before discouting it as some wacky tinfoil hat theory.

"I don't think anyone would be thinking about the euro/dollar battle when we find a dirty bomb in Times Square, or a VX-filled UAV heading for Washington DC. That's what this war is about."

Probably not, but that is a straw-man argument, which didn't address what I was asking. Which is: Why the mainstream media has chosen to ignore the euro/dollar battle?

Link to funny cartoon :-)

I´m glad that I could have helped you getting more insights from Germany.

Regards,

Michael

Locking on ze Frenzh, I´m glat zat Germani hass no veto powa in ze UN.

well, they´re not friends or followers of Saddam.

Something smells in France, and it ain't just a hygeine problem. I wonder what we'll learn about Germany?