Israel is the new Jew

The National Post | Monday, February 10, 2003 | Brian Mulroney

[rmlew]

One can be anti-Israel withought being anti-Semetic, in certain circumstances, but they tend to walk a fine line.

[yonif]

Let's just say most who are anti-Israel are either Arab or anti-Semitic.

[jethropalerobber]

Let's just say most who are anti-Israel are either Arab or anti-Semitic.

...is analogous to:

Let's just say most who are anti-Palestinian are either Jewish or anti-Muslim.

let's just say you are an idiot.

[yonif]

I say most.

There are also Christians, of course, who are very pro-Israel.

There are many who are against Palestinian terrorism, not just those you listed.

And no, I am not an idiot.

[Phil V.]

Yep, and there's not an insignificant number of "I'm anti-Israel but not anti-semitic" creeps right here on FR. Thankfully, few of us buy that bald-faced lie.

. . . Who would have believed that the Israel Defense Forces would fire flechette shells at a soccer field where children were playing, wounding nine people, including two children, without anyone protesting? . . .

I expect that when I tell you that I AM NOT anti Israel my statement will be met with ridicule - perhaps even abuse - or perhaps not responded to at all - ignored - silenced by silence. . . .

but what th' hell . . . I am NOT anti-Israel.

The "war on terrorism" (prior to 9/11, the Middle East conflict) is not advanced but, rather, is prolonged and guaranteed another incarnation by Israel's use, for instance, of flechette shells . Israel is not helping my country OR MY PRESIDENT by such insane behavior.

[Mr. Mojo]

Relax, I'm not going to either ignore you or abuse you.

I agree with you that such incidents as the one you mentioned - if true - are not in anyone's bests interests, and should be condemned in the harshest language possible. But I have a very difficult time believing that IDF forces intentionally fired flachette shells on soccer playing Palestinians kids. The IDF is a very disciplined bunch, and their training strongly emphasizes restraint around innocents. Indeed, many times this restraint has caused their own deaths. No doubt there are rogue elements within the IDF who have committed atrocities, but they're the exception, not the rule. ...And are almost always punished severely for their transgressions.

Israel is in a war with terrorists in the disputed territories, and as in all wars innocent people die. These collateral deaths are unfortunate, but mostly unavoidable. Similarly, I feel for the innocent Iraqi casualties in our own upcoming conflict in SW Asia. But again, I see them as unavoidable. War is horrible, but many times the alternative - inaction - is exponentially worse.

[Phil V.]

I agree with you that such incidents as the one you mentioned - if true - are not in anyone's bests interests, and should be condemned in the harshest language possible.

w w w . h a a r e t z d a i l y . c o m

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IDF fires outlawed Flachette shells in Gaza

Mon, Feb 3

Palestinian sources report that Israel Defense Forces tanks stationed close to the Jabalya refugee camp in the Gaza Strip fired a number of outlawed Flachette shells Friday evening at a soccer field in the eastern section of the camp. Children and adults were playing there at the time, continued the sources, and nine Palestinians were injured.

The sources said the IDF tanks fired two volleys at the area, with a number of shells hitting the playing field while others fell in adjacent fruit groves. The nine injured, they said, included three individuals who were moderately hurt - Asalam Sabah, 10, Ismail Hamed, 12, and Balal Alarizi, 25. The three were initially treated at a clinic in the Jabalya camp and later transferred to Shifa Hospital in the Strip.

Six other people were lightly injured in the shelling, the Palestinian sources reported.

The sources added that the injuries were caused by shrapnel and metal spurs contained in the shells and intended to disperse the effect of the blast over a wide area.

In addition to the injuries and damage caused in the area of the soccer field, the sources said, hundreds of metal spurs from the shells had struck nearby residences.

The IDF made widespread use of Flachette shells during its occupation of southern Lebanon. Such shells have also been used in the current intifada in open areas of the West Bank and during military operations in the Gaza Strip. The most well-known incident with such shells took place in June 2001, when three Palestinian women were killed by the shells on the outskirts of Rafah.

In another incident, last October, eight Palestinians were killed and 50 others were injured when the IDF used both Flachette shells in the Sheikh Ajalin neighborhood of Gaza City.

The IDF Spokesman's Office confirmed the use of the Flachette shells on Friday, noting that the shells had been fired into an open area and not at a residential district. The spokesman's office added that "IDF forces spotted a cell of three terrorists who were planning to launch Kassam rockets at Israeli territory."

Amos Harel adds: Military sources said that the IDF sometimes makes use of Flachette shells in the Strip, adding that the Palestinian claims regarding injuries sustained by children as a result of the shelling were as yet unfounded.

The Palestinians argue that the Flachette shells are outlawed by the Geneva Convention, but the IDF says it is in possession of a legal interpretation that allows for the use of Flachette shells under certain circumstances.

_{By Arnon Regular}

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Israel razes 22 Palestinian structures in Hebron

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Are American lives are going to be lost to make the Middle Easst safe for Flachettes and bulldozers?

[Phil V.]

. . . and transfer?

[Mr. Mojo]

Not surprising in the least that my point flew ten miles over your head. And that point was not to dispute your contention that the Israelis use(d) flachettes in the territories, but your insinuation that the IDF intentionally tries to kill Palestinian innocents.

And your insinuation that the U.S. is going to fight this war soley for Israel's sake is ignorant beyond description. You need serious help.

[Victoria Delsoul]

There is no question that anti-Semitism is born in ignorance and nurtured in envy.

[Phil V.]

Israel INTENTIONALLY uses flachettes. Flachettes are no more than a "high tech" version of the Palestinian nail laced terrorist bomb designed to kill and mame as many as possible - and what the hey - if a little "collateral damage" happens, so what. . .it was "an accident".

Slowly, Israel is becoming "them". The Light Unto The World dims.

As to your second misperception of my stand. . . We should take out Iraq FOR OUR OWN national interest - and we will. But Israel's behavior ought not fuzz the lines and give our enemies the notion that we are Israel goy-boys.

The prime minister, in an interim summation, expresses satisfaction with his policy. Syria is sitting on the sidelines. Lebanon deploys its army in the south. "The righteous have their work done for them by others. The Americans are dealing with Iraq, in Jordan there are upheavals and to this day, not a single Israeli has been killed," notes the prime minister (Arad).

[Mr. Mojo]

It would be nice if you actually read what I posted, instead of what you wanted to see. I never said Israel didn't intentionally use flachettes; I said that the IDF doesn't intentionally kill Palestinian innocents. They used flachettes to kill terrorists in the disputed territories, and now they've taken the wise step of outlawing their use for the obvious reason that the collateral damage they cause is unacceptable.

Do you honestly think the IDF intentionally kills Palestinian innocents? Perhaps you should stop reading Al Jazeera and western leftist fishwraps.

[Phil V.]

. . . and now they've taken the wise step of outlawing their use . . .

Really??? Link?

[Mr. Mojo]

I read the story a few weeks back in an Israeli paper; can't find the link on FR right now. But I remember reading that the IDF has prohibited their general use in the territories. Specific uses, however, could very well be another story.

Now, feel free to answer my question: Do you believe that the IDF intentionally kills Palestinian innocents?

[rmlew]

What is wrong with using Flechettes?
Essentially, the tank uses these shells becomming large shotguns.

I don't see how they are worse than a High-explosive round covered in shrapnel. It is a tool. However, it is aimed at militia, army units, and terrorists as opposed to civilians. That is a fundamental difference you refuse to understand.

UN Propoganda aside, your arguement has no substance and you know it.

As for the Us acting in Israel's interest, for the last 15 years, Israel has given up territory and suffdered attacks to help the US.

[sheik yerbouty]

If need be, fight chaya with chaya.

[eshu]

LOL!

[Stultis]

Let's just say most who are anti-Israel are either Arab or anti-Semitic.

...is analogous to:

Let's just say most who are anti-Palestinian are either Jewish or anti-Muslim.

But how about:

Many of those who are commonly identified as "anti-Palestinian" actually have the best interests of the Palestinian people at heart; whereas many of those who claim to be "pro-Palestinian" actually would see them consumed as "cannon fodder," and driven ever deeper, even irretrievably, into a disastrous culture of murder and self-immolation.

[sheik yerbouty]

D.I.N!