How Lincoln’s Army 'Liberated' the Indians

LewRockwell.com ^ | February 12, 2003 | Thomas DiLorenzo

[Sam's Army]

"You may not need to know what post hoc, ergo propter hoc means if you intend to pump gas all your life, but if you think you like debating political issues you might have a look at a logic text sometime. FTR post hoc, ergo propter hoc is a particular type of faulty reasoning. I suppose if you like the conclusion you reached it probably doesn't matter to you how you got there, but it does betray your lack of education."

And your arrogance is betrayed in that post; but that's OK, I Love You just the way you are, don't ever change!

Again you fail to address my point of this country being better off today with the REALITY of the north having won the civil war.

Next time you are filling up at the gas station, be sure to ask for me! (That is if you don't mind being seen with the unwashed masses)

[ml/nj]

Again you fail to address my point of this country being better off today with the REALITY of the north having won the civil war.

And you are probably only alive because of Adolf Hitler. (I am.) So what?

I would deny your basic premise that one is automatically better off having been born in the country of Abraham Lincoln than in the one of Thomas Jefferson. (They're quite different, you know.)

ML/NJ

[Sam's Army]

"I would deny your basic premise that one is automatically better off having been born in the country of Abraham Lincoln than in the one of Thomas Jefferson. (They're quite different, you know)"

Yet again, you are choosing not to answer the question. I was not asking about Lincoln vs Jefferson. I was asking about a UNITED States Of America as opposed to a CSA and USA existing simultaneously.

We, as a nation, are better off today (although not perfect) since the south lost.

[ml/nj]

Yet again, you are choosing not to answer the question. I was not asking about Lincoln vs Jefferson. I was asking about a UNITED States Of America as opposed to a CSA and USA existing simultaneously.

I think I answered the question, but that you cannot understand. We are obviously talking about paths not traveled here, but I think it is quite likely that this land would have been better off if Lincoln had never existed, of if he had told the South to go in peace.

Maybe things would have been even better if we had absorbed Canada?

ML/NJ (Lifetime Yankee)

[H.Akston]

We, as a nation, are better off today (although not perfect) since the south lost.

We would have been better off if the South had never seceded. Then the States would retain the ability to discriminate based on personal responsibility, like they always were able to do before the 14th Amendment by the Yankee Rump Congress overrode the 10th Amendment, unconstitutionally.

A voluntary Union is a more perfect Union.

A house divided can not stand. That's why Lincoln shouldn't have fought the attempt to build two houses side by side, that were united within. This new Union is divided, within.

[Sam's Army]

"I think it is quite likely that this land would have been better off if Lincoln had never existed, of if he had told the South to go in peace."

If either were the case, it surely would have affected our westward expansion in the short run and our worldwide presence in the long run. Think of the ramifications on either world war had one side been in and the other neutral, or worse. You are correct in saying that we are talking about paths not taken here and I for one am thankful that things turned out the way they did.

If I may wryly assert that as far as Canada goes, one of the best things that would have come of that is better tasting domestic beer. (Excepting Sam Adams of course)

If Alberta keeps having tax issues with Ottawa, we may see a provincial admission in our lifetimes.

[Sam's Army]

"This new Union is divided, within."

That's an unfortunate result of people deciding to hyphenate their heritage and hold on to grudges that were settled generations ago.

[LaBelleDameSansMerci]

"...By Jove, I think you've got it. LaBelleDame...

Let me put it another way:

It's astounding to watch the Southern revivalists devour themselves in an attempt to extract "justice' from the court of history.

First they embrace the marxist critique of Lincoln after the failure of reconstruction

Then, when the South became just one more piece of collateral damage on the road to marixst utopia, they decided to pretend that the ante bellum South was the last best hope for small, localized govenment. That myth, of course, is easily disproved as the South was a great believer in Federal power in our wars and filibusters to expand the lands of the US in order to shore up the slave economy; in their use of the Supreme Court to defend their "way of life"; in their love of trampling State law when hunting down fugitive slaves.

And now, in the final throes of self-mutilation, Southern revivalists have embraced the identity politics of the New Left. By some strange process of reasoning--or anti-reasoning--they calculate that if they can demonstrate that ALL white men in American history were racist, hypocritical bigots and mass murderers then, somehow, a new day will dawn and justice will be served. It reminds me of the sorry spectacle of republican activists, in the wake of the Trent Lott afffair, fanning out into the media, to perform post-mortem inquisitions upon dead white Southern populist politicians in order to demonstrate the hypocricy of the attack upon Lott.

The self-destructivenes and myopia, is breath-taking. And the historical method is laughable. No, General William Tecumseh Sherman was not a man in the mold of General Wesley Clark. Contemplate that, if you dare.

But instead of expending their energies excoriating and exorcising contemporary perfumed princes like Clark, Southern revivalists prefer to exhume and mau-mau the dead.

Impotent cowards....

[The Iguana]

Next week, DiLorenzo will tell us how the sack of Lawrence promoted individual liberty and true federalism.

[Non-Sequitur]

Next week, DiLorenzo will tell us how the sack of Lawrence promoted individual liberty and true federalism.

That and it was all Lincoln's fault.

[The Iguana]

"We would have been better off if the South had never seceded. Then the States would retain the ability to discriminate based on personal responsibility..."

And skin color.

[stand watie]

in the case of "about 500 nekkid red savages", i.e. 503 CSA soldiers captured in the carolinas, they took care of them evidently by putting a bullet in each head outside the damnyankee DEATH CAMP at Point Lookout, MD!

free dixie,sw

[SCDogPapa]

"The more Indians we can kill this year, the less will have to be killed next year, for the more I see of these Indians, the more convinced I am that they all have to be killed or be maintained as a species of paupers." Gen. W.T. Sherman

He was such a nice man.

[Aurelius]

Thank you for sharing your opinion with me. Be assured that I will give it all of the consideration that it merits.

[Colt .45]

Next time you bitch about "Big Government" just remember the side you supported in that war brought it about. That includes income tax, shrinking individual liberties, etc. Yes, turn a blind eye to the truth, but isn't it amazing how Sherman's "Final Solution to the Indian Problem" and Hitler's "Final Solution to the Jewish Question" had the same answer?! Putting both races in contained areas, and extermination of them whenever the opportunity presented itself. Then that old pesky question of "How can you blame that on Lincoln?" comes along. I'll wager the only difference between Sherman and the Waffen SS were about 80 years, and physical distance between areas of conflict.

[Sam's Army]

Which flag did you pledge alleigance to in the military?

Next time I bitch about big gov't I'll not blame a President or General who have been dead for a couple of generations. I will point the finger to the culprits of today.....crooked politicians and apathetic voters.

Other than the "Big Government" comment, the rest of your paragraph above reads like a shrill treatise from a far-left white-male hating organization like A.N.S.W.E.R.

If you served this country it is a shame that you seek so hard to find what is wrong with it by becoming focused on what was wrong in the past by today's standards, but was acceptable to many at the time (see also: slavery). Should the Indians get reparations too along with the blacks? How about the Indians that were moved off of southern lands well before the Civil War? Should descendants of white southerners now get reparations from the north; who dared as to be so arrogant as to fight a war and win? (And we are better off today for that victory: see WW2)

Sometimes ya just gotta be thankful to God for what you have and where you live and move toward the future. We are not perfect as a nation, and our history has some dark moments (I am part Cherokee), but we can only focus so much on what a bastard Sherman was. It makes no difference in the war on terror.

[Colt .45]

"Other than the "Big Government" comment, the rest of your paragraph above reads like a shrill treatise from a far-left white-male hating organization like A.N.S.W.E.R."

I don't belong to A.N.S.W.E.R., nor am I left-wing in any of my views. I first enlisted during Viet Nam to defend my country and have spent 20 years on active duty in defense of your freedom and right to speak. I am a Republican, white-Irish American of southern ancestry. My race has known predjudice and oppression, but I am not out looking for handouts. I voted for the current President, hated the last one, and took an oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies foreign or domestic! We didn't pledge allegiance to a flag, we saluted the colors! One thing you need to do is to stop looking at life through a plexiglass stomach. One needs to acknowledge the wrongs committed in the past to understand today's situation. History isn't about one viewpoint, moron, its about telling both sides of a story! Are we better off today ... in some respects yes, and in some respects no. Reparations? I don't feel that any of the groups you mentioned deserve reparations, but the guilty parties need to own up to their culpability. Whites have owned up to slavery, but the Yankees continue to deny any legitimacy to the South's right of secession, and by diligent study of what the Founders' meant when they set up this country I can tell you that the government we have is a mere shadow of what they envisioned.

"Sometimes ya just gotta be thankful to God for what you have and where you live and move toward the future."

I thank God every day that I live in a country where I have the right to express my views, whether they piss you off or not! Next time you question my patriotism boyo, you better come armed with facts, not with a lot of horse manuer!

[Sam's Army]

You are a good challenge, Colt. Here goes:

"We didn't pledge allegiance to a flag, we saluted the colors!"

True. But let's not split hairs, you know what I was talking about. It is not the confederate flag that represents this United States of America that you served under (and that I am thankful for your service).

"One thing you need to do is to stop looking at life through a plexiglass stomach."

If I had a dollar everytime I heard that one...

"History isn't about one viewpoint, moron, its about telling both sides of a story!"

Nothing wrong with that; and I never suggested otherwise, did I? The issue (in my opinion) is what can be gained today by complaining about something that was the norm at the time and has been acknowledged and settled? It will only serve as ammo to the left for the continued advancement of victimization style legislation.

"Yankees continue to deny any legitimacy to the South's right of secession,"

That argument has been settled.

"I can tell you that the government we have is a mere shadow of what they envisioned."

True, as is the case with all governments. Marx is still spinning in his grave, I imagine.

"Next time you question my patriotism boyo, you better come armed with facts, not with a lot of horse manuer!"

I never questioned your patriotism, only your focus of what your are patriotic towards first. But you are correct, you fought for that right and we are thankful.

[Colt .45]

"It is not the confederate flag that represents this United States of America that you served under (and that I am thankful for your service)."

The Confederate Battle Flag is a part of this nation's heritage, and I fly it because of my Southern heritage, and because it is a thorn in the side of all who worship the State sponsored thought and speech espoused in Political Correctness. Resistance to tyranny is obedience to God!

"The issue (in my opinion) is what can be gained today by complaining about something that was the norm at the time and has been acknowledged and settled? It will only serve as ammo to the left for the continued advancement of victimization style legislation."

No one is complaining here, but if we bury these events under the covering of time, the true importance of why we are where we are will never be taught. As far as the leftist libretarians go they are nothing more than "usefull idiots" to those who oppose freedom such as Communists, dictators, and tyrants.

"True, as is the case with all governments. Marx is still spinning in his grave, I imagine."

And if we are to remain free, then we must always stand against the silent encroachments of our liberties by governments! All of our rights, and immunities as citizens of the United States are being encroached upon by leftists, and their political hacks (nominally DemocRATS). I continue to fight them and view with a jaundiced eye every "for the good of the people" bill that gets tabled in Congress. Did you realize that more usurpations of Individual Rights stem from the ideas that are tabled under "for the good of the people" than any other purported reason? I feel, as the Founders' felt, that I am capable of determining what is best for myself. And if flying my Confederate Battle flag is my right of expression (which it is), then I can fly it when and where I please. Along with that, if it offends others, then they need to grow a thicker skin because that is what liberty is about, the freedom to do as we want within the law. But we must never forget our history, we must study it, dissect it, learn of it ... all of it. So that we will not be doomed to repeat it.

[Sam's Army]

"The Confederate Battle Flag is a part of this nation's heritage, and I fly it because of my Southern heritage"

I am reticent to that only in seeing so many other flags being flown in this country due to heritage (Mexican, Puerto Rican, Cuban, etc). At some point we have to get on the same page identity-wise. Otherwise we will continually split into smaller and smaller divisions and be (I hate this term) Balkanized.

"No one is complaining here, but if we bury these events under the covering of time, the true importance of why we are where we are will never be taught."

Thoughtful; and thought provoking. I would only say that there has to be a point and reason of where we understand the past, but move ahead to the greater challenge. I think the injustices of the Indian wars have been learned, and they are not that hidden as far as history goes (maybe glossed over, but not suppressed in these PC times). So much of DiLorenzo's writings seem more to divide and incite than anything else.

"And if we are to remain free, then we must always stand against the silent encroachments of our liberties by governments!"

Agreed.