How do you think I should respond to this anti-War leftist?

We often hear from the "anti-war" crowd that "dissent is what America is all about." That by protesting against the war, they are not "unpatriotic," rather, they are the "true patriots." Not to mention the pat on the back they give to themselves because of their "bravery."

Bravery has many definitions, "The bravest are surely those who have the clearest vision of what is before them, glory and danger alike, and yet notwithstanding go out to meet it." – Thucydides. More to the point, "Courage is doing what youre afraid to do. There can be no courage unless youre scared." -- Eddie Rickenbacher

Basically, unless an act is made in spite of fear, it cannot be considered brave. The people who strap explosives to themselves, or fly aircraft into buildings hoping to kill many innocents are not brave. They see eternity and virgins as their reward and seek them out. They are not afraid, just the opposite. If you are doing a despicable act that you want to do and no courage is involved, it is in effect, cowardly. It cannot even be considered neutral because of the horrific results.

Patriotism too has many definitions. Most, quite surprisingly, are against being patriotic to one nation. We hear Samuel Johnsons quote often, "Patriotism is the last refuge of scoundrels," as somehow being the last word on the subject; it isnt.

Those who are aware that America as a nation did not achieve greatness because of its faults, but rather its citizens love of country and freedom to excel, prefer it to remain that way.

As George Washington clearly understood when it came to securing America, "Put none but Americans on guard tonight."

It has become fashionable in elite circles to trash America. The "elite" claim to "love America," it the government they hate, or the foreign policy, or whatever. To them, America became their individuality, rather than a collective. America is no longer the "United" States; rather, like the protestors in the sixties, they wish to make an America in their own image, and not as our founding fathers envisioned.

Congress by a large majority gave our President authority to use military action against Iraq. Yet, Senator Kennedy wants a do-over and Senator Paul wants to expunge the resolution altogether. In effect, they desire America only act militarily after mushroom clouds appear over our cities. They are willing to sacrifice millions. They dont believe the evil ones will act on their watch; others can deal with it then.

Celebrities have been described as "American Royalty" who we all seem to hold to a higher standard. Here are a few excerpts from our "heroes" of the stage and screen:

Danny Glover: “Going to war and taking lives is not the process that works. What youve done is effectively cut off any discourse or dialogue. If were only going to govern by anger, then weve lost the game." Moreover, "One of the main purveyors of violence in this world has been this country, whether its been against Nicaragua, Vietnam or wherever."

Dustin Hoffman: "For me as an American, the most painful aspect of this is that I believe that administration has taken the events of 9/11 and has manipulated the grief of the country and I think thats reprehensible," And, "I dont think, like many of us, that the reasons we have been given for going to war are the honest reasons."

Susan Sarandon: In a TV commercial asks, "Before our kids start coming home from Iraq in body bags and women and children start dying in Baghdad, I need to know, what did Iraq do to us?" Former Ambassador to Iraq Edward Peck replies, "The answer is nothing. Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, nothing to do with Al Qaeda, its neighbors dont think its a threat, invading Iraq will increase terrorism, not reduce it."

Tim Robbins: "Im against this whole Lets bomb a new country because things arent going our way. Its Lets change the subject from Cheney and Halliburton and the crumbling confidence in the stock market. Talk about cynical! Adding, "Lets not be so arrogant as to believe we can do whatever the hell we want regardless of what the Europeans, the Chinese or the South Americans think. Its not good."

Sean Penn: "If theres going to be blood on my hands, Im not willing to have it be invisible. I wanted to come to Iraq and see Iraqi faces -- children, adults, diplomats, anybody that implies -- and go home with some impressions that will not let me off the hook . . . . Its not abstract anymore."

Sheryl Crow: "One has only to read European newspapers to get a glimpse into how our policies are perceived. I believe the only answer to not having enemies is to start living as allies...not as bullies who need to control the economies of other countries. Ridding Iraq of Saddam will not solve the problem of hate for America." Adding, "I do believe Saddam is a real threat to the world but it is only right that we allow the process that we have been insisting on to take place." And, "I love America deeply, but all other souls that exist outside of this country I love as a citizen of the world."

Woody Harrelson: In an Article entitled Im an American Tired of American Lies, said, "This is a racist and imperialist war. The warmongers who stole the White House (you call them "hawks," but I would never disparage such a fine bird) have hijacked a nations grief and turned it into a perpetual war on any non-white country they choose to describe as terrorist."

Oliver Stone: "Does anybody make a connection between the 2000 [presidential] election and the events of Sept. 11?" Adding, “Bin Laden was completely protected by the oil companies in this country who told [President] Bush not to go after him because it would piss off the Saudis.” And, "there’s the cover-up involving ground zero: limbs getting cut off bodies for jewelry, a man walking off with $132 million.

Jessica Lange: Talking about George W. Bush: “I despise him. I despise his administration and everything they stand for.” -- “To my mind the election was stolen by George Bush and we have been suffering ever since under this mans leadership.” -- “And I think this latest thing with Iraq is absolute madness and Im stunned that there is not opposition on a much more global scale to what hes talking about.” -- “There has to be a movement now to really oppose what he is proposing because its unconstitutional, its immoral and basically illegal.” “It is an embarrassing time to be an American. It really is. Its humiliating.”

George Clooney: “We’re picking on people we can beat, you know, and we’re saying, okay, we’ll go get them.” Adding, "The country needs a leader, not a manager, and President Bush doesnt fit the bill."

Mike Farrell: Speaking about the "Artists United to Win Without War" coalition, "The breadth of support within the entertainment community for this statement in opposition to war is unprecedented. This reflects the deep concern that so many have about the dangers of a military invasion and expresses their firm desire to see Iraq disarmed without war." The coalitions central demand is, let the UN and its weapons inspectors do their jobs.

There are dozens of more celebrities against America; Barbra Streisand, Ed Asner, Martin Scorsese, Warren Beatty, Alec Baldwin, Martin Sheen, Rob Reiner, Kim Bassinger etc. Who believe or rather "feel," America should not go to war to protect American values or its people. Patriotism for them is just a word they define according to their needs at the moment. The American flag, raised or worn, American sovereignty, American needs are scoffed at and found offensive to these "patriots."

What they all have in common is a sense of self above country. Which is in fact, anathema to being patriotic. But for their being American, how far would their “talents” have taken them in Iraq, the rest of the Middle East, or anywhere else for that matter?

While many celebrities and the "elite" of America view themselves as citizens of the world, I prefer Daniel Websters view, "I was born an American; I live an American; I shall die an American!"

Here is the response

1.) where and by whom has american sovreignty ever been questioned? you want to talk about state sovreignty? what about iraq? what were about to do violates the first principle of international relations- always respect anothers states sovreignty.

2.) its this kind of bullshit that paul walfield and yourself are throwing out in the open thats dangerous to america; not anything tim robbins or jessica lange might have said on tv. labeling them as unpatriotic is as bad as you seem to think it is to disagree with the american government. dont you understand that its perfectly acceptable to criticize the american government? i mean, were the ones that make the government what it is- we vote people in and out of office. every two, four, or six years, a member of the government has to ask us if they can keep their job. our criticism of the government shouldnt be limited to november of each year. and im sorry, but you conservatives, or whatever you want to call yourself (youd probably prefer the term "patriot" wouldnt you...) are such fucking hypocrits. was there this much criticism of you bastards when you tried to impeach clinton for having an affair? bush is the one who should be thrown on the street- what hes done and plans to do is MUCH worse than anything a cigar could EVER do. so, when one group criticizes a president, its acceptable, its fulfilling duty; but when another group, whether its celebrities or the millions around the country who marched on saturday, its unpatriotic? any true american knows that america is great because you are free to believe and say whatever you like. walfield and yourself are trying to squelch this ideal. its you and walfield that are doing the same thing you accuse these celebrities of doing. notice ive never called you unpatriotic. ive called you a hypocrit and probably a few other things, but ive never questioned your love for this country. because you know what? im a patriot as well. you dont have to love george w. bush to love america, no matter what he tries to tell you.

We hear Samuel Johnsons quote often, "Patriotism is the last refuge of scoundrels," as somehow being the last word on the subject; it isnt.

This is probably the most misinterpreted and abused thing Johnson ever said. In fact, he said "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel" in reference to a convicted murderer who, attempting to have his sentence reduced, laid on a big sob story about his past services to his country. Johnson's point was not directed against patriotism - no man was a greater patriot, even a jingoist for his native England than Johnson was. His point was directed against scoundrels who wrap themselves in a false pose of patriotism to distract attention from their crimes. Much like our so-called "patriotic anti-war protesters".

1) Iraq does have a right to sovreignity. Actually, he did, until, through his own actions, he forfeited it. He invaded a sovreign neighbor, he threatens Israel's sovreignity on a regular basis, and through his attempts to acquire WMD's, he threatens many more nations, including the US.

2) Clinton wasn't impeached because of his sexual excapades - he no doubt had MANY more women as president than just Monica. He was impeached because he committed felonious perjury. A real-life crime for which almost anyone else would have gone to jail. It happens all the time. Beyond that, his impeachment was for his having lied repeatedly to the American people and government employees about the same matter.3) Your lib pen pal may not hate America, but if he were honest, he would notice that MANY of his breatheren do. Their hatred is evident in their words, and their deeds.

The other day while listening to a talk radio show on the way to work, I heard three anti-American protesters attempt to explain themselves.

The first caller was a libertarian who said we should pull out of all countries, renounce support for all allies (he specifically mentioned Israel), and let the world know that if they hit us with a WMD we would "nuke every one of them."

The second caller said that he was "unconvinced" that we needed to go to war. After further questioning, he admitted that Saddam was a real threat, but that we shouldn't do anything until he attacks us first with a WMD.

The third caller was especially nutty. She said that Bush was the next Hitler, that he wanted to commit genocide against Arabs and Muslims, and she hoped that the rest of the world would "really hand it" to the US. I think she also said we deserved 9/11, and she was of course opposed to the war in Afghanistan.

Sometimes the best way to respond to these people is by doing nothing except letting them continue to talk. Think of Captain Queeg ranting and rattling the marbles at the end of the movie The Caine Mutiny.

I think you are going down a rathole arguing 'patriotism' with anyone, especially a leftist. America means freedom from government control. The leftist project is to use freedom to try to convince people to sacrifice their own and expand government control. In that sense there is an anti-American element to leftism. But I'm sure there are plenty of American communists who think they are being 'American' and patriotic.

I would ask this person how they bestow the rights of statehood to Saddam Hussein. They make a great deal of pointing out the importance of representative government here in the USA. The right of sovereignty belongs to the Iraqi people, not Saddam Hussein. We are restoring their sovereignty by wresting it from Saddam Hussein and giving it back to them.

[Poor spelling and grammar in the original]

1) you want to talk about state sovreignty? what about iraq? what were about to do violates the first principle of international relations- always respect anothers states sovreignty.

For people who call themselves Americans, this is the first principle of sovereignty: "That governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed." In what sense is the putative "government" of Iraq actually legitimate?

In what sense does a patriotic American claim that the despicable despotism in Iraq is actually a "government"?

2) labeling them as unpatriotic is as bad as you seem to think it is to disagree with the american government.

He doesn't label them as unpatriotic because of their disagreement. He labels them as unpatriotic because the content of their comments betray a self-centeredness incompatible with the way he defines patriotism. It isn't the disagreement, per se .

dont you understand that its perfectly acceptable to criticize the american government? etc.

Yes, we do, but the words one chooses in this criticism betray meanings, and in many cases those meanings are symptomatic of people who despise America.

was there this much criticism of you bastards when you tried to impeach clinton for having an affair?

Was there any criticism from you people about killing innocent civilians when this sorry excuse for a man lobbed over 450 cruise missiles into Iraq to divert attention from those legal problems? Oh, and by the way, we didn't try to impeach him, we did impeach him. And just for the record, we didn't care about his affair. Indeed, given his wife, we supported him for the affair. What we impeached him for was for trying to fix a federal judge.

bush is the one who should be thrown on the street- what hes done and plans to do is MUCH worse than anything a cigar could EVER do.

OK, please name one thing.

so, when one group criticizes a president, its acceptable, its fulfilling duty; but when another group, whether its celebrities or the millions around the country who marched on saturday, its unpatriotic?

No, it's not the criticism, it's the content of the criticism. You seem genuinely unable to grasp this, and it's really not subtle.

any true american knows that america is great because you are free to believe and say whatever you like.

No! America is great because [among other things] it recognizes these rights. But America has no more authority to grant me my humanity than any other temporal power.

you dont have to love george w. bush to love america, no matter what he tries to tell you.

You are arguing against a straw man. No one has ever made this claim. Lots of people love America who don't care for George Bush. But they haven't been represented in the ranks of the Hollywood dimbulbs quoted here, or "peace" marchers, whose real desire is to postpone a small, relatively harmless war now so my children can fight a deadly, global one later.

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