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Why Does the Left Hate Israel?
www.chronwatch.com ^ | 2/21/03 | Cinnamon Stillwell

Posted on 02/21/2003 7:15:36 PM PST by SeenTheLight

I’ve asked myself on many occasions: “When there are so many other countries in the world that do injustice both to their own people and to others, why does the Left focus so exclusively on Israel?”

What about China’s occupation of Tibet or Syria’s occupation of Lebanon? What about the repression and tyranny of the Arab nations surrounding democratic Israel, including the Palestinians who, let’s not forget, practice honor killings, lynch “collaborators,” suppress the media, and whose leaders funnel funds meant for the people to terrorists?

The real reason the left hates Israel is two-fold. First of all, they have been hijacked by Palestinian Nationalism and secondly, they don’t like uppity Jews. And to mollify those who will immediately claim that anti-Israel sentiments do not amount to anti-Semitism, let me just say that I don’t buy it.

I’m not sure when Palestinian Nationalism began to seep into the Left’s dogma, but it appears to have been in the last 15 years or so. I first noticed this trend during a protest of the Gulf War, where I saw pro-Palestinian propaganda with a distinctly anti-Semitic edge to it. It was around this time that the term “Zionists” began to be used as a fill-in for all Jews who simply supported the continuing existence of the state of Israel and as such, were deserving of contempt. In short, “Zionist” became the politically correct term for “Hebe.” The years since have only solidified this pattern and these days, the anti-war protesters are more hateful than ever.

I’ve had the unique experience, while taking part recently in counter-protests, of witnessing the wrath of the Palestinian Nationalists up close and personal. The graying hippies wearing Intifada T-shirts and spitting in my face, women in burkas unfurling Palestinian flags in front of my signs, Arab-American teenagers telling me they want to “kill all the Jews,” and being called a “Zionist Pig,” are just a few of the precious moments I’ve taken home from “peace” rallies. This is the ugly side of the anti-war movement, among others, and they don’t want it publicized.

Indeed, the formerly celebrated Jewish liberal Michael Lerner, has recently been excommunicated for daring to criticize A.N.S.W.E.R., the main organizer of the anti-war protests. This is apparently a no-no among a movement that doesn’t tolerate dissent. Lerner also committed the crime of refusing to consign Israel to the dustbin of history. He didn’t go along with the program and for that, he became persona non grata.

The Left only likes Jews as long as they’re victims, passively marching to the Nazi death camps, or in this case, to the Mediterranean Sea. They can deny that they’re anti-Semitic by pointing to their loyal Jewish comrades, who fail to recognize their enemies. These Jews are acceptable because they either want the destruction of Israel too or at the very least, won’t stand in the way. But give a Jew a gun or God forbid, a tank, and suddenly they become the enemy. The Left, it seems, prefers suicidal Jews to tough ones.

The Left demands nothing of the Palestinians and everything of the Israelis. What, besides anti-Semitism, accounts for this double-standard? The anti-war crowd can continue to try and claim the moral high ground when it comes to questions of war and peace, but none of it will ring true, so long as their blatant hatred for Jews festers in the background.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; Israel; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: antisemitism; counterprotest; israel; jews; left; palestinians; zionist
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To: SteveH
As I recall, I was the one talking about fundamental rights of all people, and you were the one talking about who takes what buses.

Your rights get cut back when you wage war and terror. Why should Israelis suffer from Palestinian butchery without fighting back? This is sheer anti-Semitism on your part. You prefer the Jews who had no guns and were forced to the gas chambers and concentration camps. You prefer Jew as victim same way the Muslims do.

___________________________

 

 

B A C K G R O U N D

JEWS lived in what are now Arab states since the Babylonian destruction of the first Jewish Temple in Jerusalem, in 586 B.C.E. Middle Eastern and North African Jewish communities, among the oldest in the Jewish Diaspora, came to a tragic end in the 1940s and early 1950s when Arab governments forced the Jews to flee.

In 1945 there were nearly 900,000 Jews living in communities throughout the Arab world. Today, there are fewer than 8,000. In some Arab states, such as Libya, the Jewish community no longer exists; in others, only a few hundred Jews remain. Of the 900,000 Jewish refugees, approximately 600,000 were absorbed by Israel, where today almost half of Israel's Jewish citizens are the original refugees and their descendants. The remainder went to Europe and the Americas.


141 posted on 02/23/2003 7:42:25 AM PST by dennisw ( http://www.littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/weblog.php)
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To: SteveH



WHO IS AN ARAB JEW? *

By: ALBERT MEMMI

February, 1975

* The term "Arab Jews" is obviously not a good one. I have adopted it for convenience. I simply wish to underline that as natives of those countries called Arab and indigenous to those lands well before the arrival of the Arabs, we shared with them, to a great extent, languages, traditions and cultures. If one were to base oneself on this legitimacy, and not on force and numbers, then we have the same rights to our share in these lands - neither more nor less - than the Arab Moslems. But one should remember, at the same time, that the term "Arab" is not a happy one when applied to such diverse populations, including even those who call and believe themselves to be Arabs.

The head of an Arab state (Muammar Ghadaffi) recently made us a generous and novel offer. "Return," he told us, "return to the land of your birth!" It seems that this impressed many people who, carried away by their emotions, believed that the problem was solved. So much so that they did not understand what was the price to be paid in exchange: once reinstalled in our former countries, Israel will no longer have any reason to exist. The other Jews, those "terrible European usurpers", will also be sent back "home" - to clear up the remains of the crematoria, to rebuild their ruined quarters, I suppose. And if they do not choose to go with good grace, in spite of everything, then a final war will be waged against them. On this point, the Head of State was very frank. It also seems that one of his remarks deeply impressed those present: "Are you not Arabs like us - Arab Jews?"

What lovely words! We draw a secret nostalgia from them: yes, indeed, we were Arab Jews- in our habits, our culture, our music, our menu. I have written enough about it. But must one remain an Arab Jew if, in return, one has to tremble for one's life and the future of one's children and always be denied a normal existence? There are, it is true, the Arab Christians. What is not sufficiently known is the shamefully exorbitant price that they must pay for the right merely to survive. We would have liked to be Arab Jews. If we abandoned the idea, it is because over the centuries the Moslem Arabs systematically prevented its realization by their contempt and cruelty. It is now too late for us to become Arab Jews. Not only were the homes of Jews in Germany and Poland torn down, scattered to the four winds, demolished, but our homes as well. Objectively speaking, there are no longer any Jewish communities in any Arab country, and you will not find a single Arab Jew who will agree to return to his native land.

I must be clearer: the much vaunted idyllic life of the Jews in Arab lands is a myth! The truth, since I am obliged to return to it, is that from the outset we were a minority in a hostile environment; as such, we underwent all the fears, the agonies, and the constant sense of frailty of the underdog. As far back as my childhood memories go - in the tales of my father, my grandparents, my aunts and uncles - coexistence with the Arabs was not just uncomfortable, it was marked by threats periodically carried out. We must, nonetheless, remember a most significant fact: the situation of the Jews during the colonial period was more secure, because it was more legalized. This explains the prudence, the hesitation between political options of the majority of Jews in Arab lands. I have not always agreed with these choices, but one cannot reproach the responsible leaders of the communities for this ambivalence - they were only reflecting the inborn fear of their co-religionists.

As to the pre-colonial period, the collective memory of Tunisian Jewry leaves no doubt. It is enough to cite a few narratives and tales relating to that period: it was a gloomy one. The Jewish communities lived in the shadow of history, under arbitrary rule and the fear of all-powerful monarchs whose decisions could not be rescinded or even questioned. It can be said that everybody was governed by these absolute rulers: the sultans, beys and deys. But the Jews were at the mercy not only of the monarch but also of the man in the street. My grandfather still wore the obligatory and discriminatory Jewish garb, and in his time every Jew might expect to be hit on the head by any Moslem whom he happened to pass. This pleasant ritual even had a name - the chtaka; and with it went a sacramental formula which I have forgotten. A French orientalist once replied to me at a meeting: "In Islamic lands the Christians were no better off!" This is true - so what? This is a double-edged argument: it signifies, in effect, that no member of a minority lived in peace and dignity in countries with an Arab majority! Yet there was a marked difference all the same: the Christians were, as a rule, foreigners and as such protected by their mother-countries. If a Barbary pirate or an emir wanted to enslave a missionary, he had to take into account the government of the missionary's land of origin - perhaps even the Vatican or the Order of the Knights of Malta. But no one came to the rescue of the Jews, because the Jews were natives and therefore victims of the will of "their" rulers. Never, I repeat, never - with the possible exception of two or three very specific intervals such as the Andalusian, and not even then - did the Jews in Arab lands live in other than a humiliated state, vulnerable and periodically mistreated and murdered, so that they should clearly remember their place.

During the colonial period, the life of Jews took on a certain measure of security, even among the poorest classes, whereas traditionally only the rich Jews, those from the European part of town, were able to live reasonably well. In these quarters the population was mixed, and the French and Italian Jews were, in general, less in contact with the Arab population. Even they remained second-class citizens, a prey from time to time to outbursts of popular anger, which the colonial power - French, English or Italian - did not always repress in time, either out of indifference or for tactical reasons.

I have lived through the alarms of the ghetto: the rapidly barred doors and windows, my father running home after hastily shutting his shop, because of rumours of an impending pogrom. My parents stocked food in expectation of a siege, which did not always materialize, but this gives the measure of our anguish, our permanent insecurity. We felt abandoned then by the whole world, including, alas, the French protectorate officials. Whether these officials knowingly exploited these happenings for internal political reasons, as a diversion of an eventual rising against the colonial regime, I have no proof. But certainly this was the feeling of us Jews of the poor quarters. My own father was convinced that when the Tunisian riflemen left for the front during the war, the Jewish population had been delivered into their hands. At the least, we thought that the French and Tunisian authorities had shut their eyes to the depredations of the soldiery or the malcontents who streamed into the ghetto. Like the carabinieri in the song, the police never came, or if they did it was only hours after it was all over.

Shortly before the end of the colonial period, we endured an ordeal in common with Europe: the German occupation.

I have described in Pillar of Salt how the French authorities coldly left us to the Germans. But I must add that we were also submerged in a hostile Arab population, which is why so few of us could cross the lines and join the Allies. Some got through in spite of everything, but in most cases they were denounced and caught.

Nevertheless, we were inclined to forget that dreadful period after Tunisia attained independence. It must be acknowledged that not many Jews took an active part in the struggle for independence, but neither did the mass of Tunisian non-Jews. On the other hand our intellectuals, including the communists, who were very numerous, took an active role in the fight for independence; some of them fought in the ranks of the "Destour". I was myself a member of the small group which founded the newspaper Jeune Afrique in 1956, shortly before independence, for which I had to pay dearly later on.

At all events, after independence the Jewish bourgeoisie, which was an appreciable part of the Jewish population, believed that they could collaborate with the new regime, that it was possible to coexist with the Tunisian population. We were Tunisian citizens and decided in all sincerity to "play the game". But what did the Tunisians do? Just like the Moroccans and Algerians, they liquidated their Jewish communities cunningly and intelligently. They did not indulge in open brutalities as in other Arab lands - that would anyhow have been difficult after the services which had been rendered, the help given by a large number of our intellectuals, because of world public opinion, which was following events in our region closely; and also because of American aid which they needed urgently. Nonetheless they strangled the Jewish population economically. This was easy with the merchants: it was enough not to renew their licences, to decline to grant them import permits and, at the same time, to give preference to their Moslem competitors. In the civil service it was hardly more complicated: Jews were not taken on, or veteran Jewish officials were confronted with insurmountable language difficulties, which were rarely imposed upon Moslems. Periodically, a Jewish engineer or a senior official would be put in jail on mysterious, Kafkaesque charges which panicked everyone else.

And this does not take into account the impact of the relative proximity of the Arab-Israel conflict. At each crisis, with every incident of the slightest importance, the mob would go wild, setting fire to Jewish shops. This even happened during the Yom Kippur War. Tunisia's President, Habib Bourguiba, has in all probability never been hostile to the Jews, but there was always that notorious "delay", which meant that the police arrived on the scene only after the shops had been pillaged and burnt. Is it any wonder that the exodus to France and Israel continued and even increased?

I myself left Tunisia for professional reasons, admittedly, because I wanted to get back into a literary circle, but also because I could not have lived much longer in that atmosphere of masked, and often open, discrimination.

It is not a question of regretting the position of historical justice we adopted in favour of the Arab peoples. I regret nothing, neither having written The Colonizer and the Colonized nor my applause for the independence of the peoples of the Maghreb. I continued to defend the Arabs even in Europe, in countless activities, communications, signatures, manifestos. But it must be stated unequivocally, once and for all: we defended the Arabs because they were oppressed. But now there are independent Arab states, with foreign policies, social classes, with rich and poor. And if they are no longer oppressed, if they are in their turn becoming oppressors, or possess unjust political regimes, I do not see why they should not be called upon to render accounts. Besides, unlike most people, I was never willing to believe (as the liberals naively, and the communists artfully, repeat) that after independence there would be no more problems, that our countries would become secular states where Europeans, Jews and Moslems would happily coexist.

I even knew that there would not be much of a place for us in the country after independence. Young nations are very exclusive; and anyhow, Arab constitutions are incompatible with a secular ideology. And this, by the way, has been recently underlined most appositely by Colonel Qadhafi. He only said aloud what others think to themselves. I was equally aware of the problem of the "small" Europeans, the poor Whites; but I thought that all this was the inevitable end of a state of affairs condemned by history. I thought, in spite of everything, that the effort was worth making. After all, we had never occupied a major place; it would have been enough had they allowed us to live in peace. This was a drama, but a historical drama - not a tragedy; modest solutions did exist for us. But even that was not possible. We were all obliged to go, each in his turn.

Thus I arrived in France, and found myself up against the legend which was current in left-wing Parisian salons: the Jews had always lived in perfect harmony with the Arabs. I was almost congratulated for having been born in such a land where racial discrimination and xenophobia were unknown. It made me laugh. I heard so much nonsense about North Africa, and from people of the best intentions that, honestly, I did not react to it at all. The chattering only began to worry me when it became a political argument that is, after 1967. The Arabs then made up their minds to use this travesty of the truth, which fell on willing ears once the reaction against Israel had set in after her victory. It is now time to denounce this absurdity.

If I had to explain the success of the myth, I would list five converging factors. The first is the product of Arab propaganda: "The Arabs never did the Jews any harm, so why do the Jews come to despoil them of their lands, when the responsibility for Jewish misfortune is altogether European? The whole responsibility for the Middle East conflict rests on the Jews of Europe. The Arab Jews never wanted to create a separate country and they are full of trust and friendship towards the Moslem Arabs." This is a double lie: the Arab Jews are much more distrustful of the Moslems than are the European Jews, and they dreamed of the Land of Israel long before the Russian and Polish Jews did.

The second argument stems from the cogitations of a part of the European Left: the Arabs were oppressed, therefore they could not be anti-Semites. This is ridiculously manichaeistic - as though one could not be oppressed and also be a racist! As if workers have not been xenophobic! Actually the argument is not convincing: the real purpose is to be able with a clear conscience to fight Zionism and thus serve the Soviet Union.

The third argument is the doing of contemporary historians, among whom, curiously enough, are certain Western Jews. Having undergone the dreadful Nazi slaughter, they could not imagine a similar thing happening elsewhere. However, if we except the massacres of the twentieth century (the pogroms in Russia after Kishinev and later by Stalin, as well as the Nazi crematoria), the total number of Jewish victims from Christian pogroms over the centuries probably does not exceed the total of the victims of the smaller and larger periodic pogroms perpetrated in Arab lands under Islam over the past millennium. Jewish history has so far been written by Western Jews; there has been no great Oriental Jewish historian. This is why only the "Western" aspects of Jewish suffering are widely known. One is reminded of the absurd distinction drawn by Jules Isaac, usually better inspired, between "true" and "false" anti-Semitism, "true" anti-Semitism being the result of Christianity. The truth is that it is not only Christianity that creates anti-Semitism, but the fact that the Jew is a member of a minority - in Christendom or in Islam. In making of anti-Semitism a Christian creation, Isaac, I regret to say, has minimized the tragedy of the Jews from Arab lands and helped to confuse people.

The fourth factor is that many Israelis, perturbed by the issue of coexistence with their Arab neighbours, wish to believe that this existed in the past; otherwise the whole undertaking would have to be discarded in despair! But in order to survive, it would be far wiser to take a clear view of the actual environment.

The fifth and last factor is our own complicity, the more or less unwitting complacency of us Jews from Arab countries - the uprooted who tend to embellish the past, who in our longing for our native Orient minimize, or completely efface, the memory of persecutions. In our recollections, in our imagination, it was a wholly marvelous life, even though our own newspapers from that period attest the contrary.

How I wish that all this had been true - that we had enjoyed a singular existence in comparison with the usual Jewish condition! Unfortunately, it is all a huge lie: Jews lived most lamentably in Arab lands. The State of Israel is not the outcome only of the sufferings of European Jewry. It is certainly possible, contrary to the thinking - if there is any thinking at all - of a part of the European Left, to free oneself from oppression and in turn to become an oppressor towards, for example, one's own minorities. Indeed, this happens very often with many new nations.

And now?

Now it is no longer a question of our returning to any Arab land, as we are so disingenuously invited to do. Such an idea would seem grotesque to all the Jews who fled their homes - from the gallows of Iraq, the rapes, the sodomy of the Egyptian prisons, from the political and cultural alienation and economic suffocation of the more moderate countries. The attitude of the Arabs towards us seems to me to be hardly different from what it has always been. The Arabs in the past merely tolerated the existence of Jewish minorities, no more. They have not yet recovered from the shock of seeing their former underlings raise up their heads, attempting even to gain their national independence! They know of only one rejoinder: off with their heads! The Arabs want to destroy Israel. They pinned great hopes on the summit meeting in Algiers. Now what did this meeting demand? Two points recur as a leitmotiv: the return of all the territories occupied by Israel, and the restoration of the legitimate national rights of the Palestinians. The first contention can still create an illusion, but not the second. What does it mean? Settling the Palestinians as rulers in Haifa or Jaffa? In other words, the end of Israel. And if not that, if it is only a matter of partition, why do they not say so? On the contrary, the Palestinians have never ceased to claim the whole of the region, and their succeeding "summits" change nothing. The summit meeting in Algiers is linked to that of Khartoum (1967), there is no basic difference. Even today the official position of the Arabs, implicit or avowed, brutal or tactical, is nothing but a perpetuation of that anti-Semitism which we have experienced. Today, as yesterday, our life is at stake. But there will come a day when the Moslem Arabs will have to admit that we, the "Arab Jews" as well - if that is how they wish to call us - have the right to existence and to dignity.

Source: Israel Academic Committee on the Middle East, February, 1975


142 posted on 02/23/2003 7:43:20 AM PST by dennisw ( http://www.littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/weblog.php)
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To: SteveH
I was the one talking about fundamental rights of all people, and you were the one talking about who takes what buses.

So then you must think that murdering Jews is a "fundamental human right."

143 posted on 02/23/2003 7:53:32 AM PST by Alouette
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To: SteveH; Alouette; dennisw; Heidi Doody
I think there was hope for a brief time when Israel was following the Helsinki Accords (I think that is the name of the agreement). My recollection is that it broke down sometime during the Clinton administration (when else?) when the Israelis continued the settlements in violation of the agreement that they signed. That's when things started to escalate back to ugliness again inside Israel. I think people outside Israel were waiting and watching, and when Israel did not meet the challenge, they resumed.

Again, I suspect your recollection is wrong. I wish you could overcome your sensitive feelings and respond to Heidi Doody’s factual post, or to my request for documentation of “Israeli agreements”. Your accusations of an apartheid state, Israeli genocide, and a Palestinian desire for peace are bogus, proved by your refusal to defend them. Glad you understand the cartoons now though!

I’ve not seen the Helsinki accords referred to much in reference to the Oslo War, they primarily were directed toward Eastern Europe, though they’re often referred to with respect to other causes, the mistreatment of Muslims in the US for example. If you meant Helsinki, I look forward to your analysis.

I suspect you were thinking of Oslo (those Scandinavians all look alike). If so, your contention that Israel agreed to either abandon settlements or cease construction is patently false (maybe you're thinking of the peace treaty with Egypt?). The settlements were a subject to be dealt with in the final negotiations, nothing more.

Other than security, of course. In the wake of Israel’s withdrawal, the PA was obligated to protect the settlers, an obligation they failed to even attempt to achieve. Perhaps you'd like to check out how the PA defends Joseph's Tomb

There have, of course, been a multitude of violations of Oslo, not by Israel, all by the Palestinians, starting with their basic refusal to recognize Israel’s right to exist, as even our State Department has recognized.

You’re either poorly informed on the topic, or a spewer of propaganda.

144 posted on 02/23/2003 10:11:54 AM PST by SJackson
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To: SteveH
 

 

Your heroic 3rd world barbarians using children in their attacks on Jews

Masked Palestinian gunmen stand near children, watching for the approach of Israeli soldiers in tanks and armored vehicles, during an Israeli army incursion in Beit Hanoun, northern Gaza Strip, Sunday, Feb. 23, 2003. Israeli army tanks and armor rolled into Beit Hanoun overnight, where they remained into the day, exchanging fire with gunmen, leaving three Palestinians killed and ten wounded. Several homes which Israel claims belonged to militants were destroyed. (AP Photo/Brennan Linsley)
Sun Feb 23, 7:34 AM ET

Masked Palestinian gunmen stand near children, watching for the approach of Israeli soldiers in tanks and armored vehicles, during an Israeli army incursion in Beit Hanoun, northern Gaza Strip (news - web sites), Sunday, Feb. 23, 2003. Israeli army tanks and armor rolled into Beit Hanoun overnight, where they remained into the day, exchanging fire with gunmen, leaving three Palestinians killed and ten wounded. Several homes which Israel claims belonged to militants were destroyed. (AP Photo/Brennan Linsley)

 

Several homes which Israel claims belonged to militants were destroyed. Excellent!!!

145 posted on 02/23/2003 11:00:24 AM PST by dennisw ( http://www.littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/weblog.php)
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To: SteveH; yonif
No but they are denying fundamental human rights to Palestinians so the long term effect is similar.

You're attempt to emotionally hijack a past travesty and argue for some type of moral equilevence is absurd. The Israelis have gone out of their way to attempt to live with the Palistinians. If they really wanted to deny "fundamental human rights" to the Palestinians they could obliterate them within a week.

I am part Native American.

But of course! LOL!

146 posted on 02/23/2003 11:33:51 AM PST by I got the rope
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To: Mr. Mojo
You got that right!

Three cheers for the JPFO!

147 posted on 02/23/2003 11:47:18 AM PST by SeenTheLight
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To: SJackson
OK, it wasn't clear what the snakes were intended to be, to me. Still, it seems demonization.

but I’m not aware of any treaty Israel has signed obligating her unilaterally to either abandon or cease construction of settlements

I am not an expert at all the negotiations that had taken place (who is?) but it was at least my impression from news reports that there was a treaty signed which had a widespread expectation that Israel was at a minimum to stop the settlements, which were a major if not the primary sticking point at a point in time (before the assassination of one of the Israeli leaders). Things seemed to go downhill once the settlement-making resumed. One can say that the treaty was broken by terrorism but at least it was my impression that the particular terrorism at the time was not state-sponsored (or Arafat-sponsored, or whatever). Since then, it seems as if the question of sponsorship has been muddied somewhat, but that was well after the settlements resumed, if I recall correctly. And in any case it does address the issue of holding innocent Palestinians responsible for the acts of Palestinian terrorists. You convert them to enemies all if you do that, it seems to me. That seems in the wrong direction.

148 posted on 02/23/2003 12:51:44 PM PST by SteveH (the right to tape ducks shall not be infringed)
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To: SeenTheLight
Getting back to the original intent of this post---which was to point out anti-Semitism under the guise of anti-Israel sentiment, from the Left---here are a couple related links if anyone is interested:

http://windsofchange.net/archives/003097.html

http://www.deanesmay.com/archives/000114.html
149 posted on 02/23/2003 1:03:50 PM PST by SeenTheLight
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To: dennisw
You are supremely stupid.

Ignoring your insulting way of addressing people (with effort)...

If the Pallies get the West Bank and Gaza they will make them into terrorist bases. Israel will not get peace. As it is, Palestinians have plenty of rights to land within Israel. There are 1.1 million Palestinians in Israel and zero Jews in Arab nations. Outside of Israel Palestinians build plenty of new housing all the time in Gaza and the West Bank. They have plenty of rights.

I do not perceive that. I think there have been families waiting since 1947 for compensation for their homes taken at that time by the Israelis. And full property rights means to be safe and secure in one's home. It does not seem that the Palestinians have that either. So they are put on a collision course with the Israeli state by Israeli state policy.

If they want more they should sign a peace treaty. But Pallies walked out of Oslo talks to make war on Israel. Their war failed and the present mess is the result. Israel is succeeding since the number of suicide bombings and terror attacks have dropped precipitously.

I am referring to the accords in which the Palestinians were granted their own police (whatever it was named; sorry). My hope was that that could have continued. It seems as if it was undermined by belligerents within both camps. If the Israeli government has the upper hand in terms of power, it is their move to make to achieve peace. Curfews and so on might be OK for very brief periods but if they interfere with people's liberties, then they become counterproductive. Ditto for more settlements.

What Palestinians don't have is the right to build illegally. Although Israel lets this monkey business slide most of the time

"Illegally" implies common trust in the Israeli state and the disposition of blind justice by that state. Whether or not you agree, the Palestinians do not perceive that as being the case right now. That's the problem. Restore rights is the first step. Otherwise the bloodletting will continue because people literally have nothing to lose.

And resumption of the settlements was viewed as in violation of treaties signed by the Palestinians who remained loyal to the cause of peace.

As well as many Israeli Jews as I distinctly recall (so why continue to bash only me as racist, pro-terrorist, and anti-Israeli? You'll have to bash those anti-Israeli pro-peace Jews with the same brush as well if you want to be consistent. Sheesh.)

150 posted on 02/23/2003 1:05:38 PM PST by SteveH (the right to tape ducks shall not be infringed)
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To: dennisw
Your rights get cut back when you wage war and terror. Why should Israelis suffer from Palestinian butchery without fighting back? This is sheer anti-Semitism on your part. You prefer the Jews who had no guns and were forced to the gas chambers and concentration camps. You prefer Jew as victim same way the Muslims do.

As I have said before, Semites include Arabs and Jews. In any case I am not racist, since I have only criticized Israeli state policy. I have said this many times and you have been asleep at the keyboard. Two dollars and seventy five cents and your IQ will buy a Grande Latte at Starbucks. I AM CRITICIZING GOVERNMENT POLICY, NOT A RACE OF PEOPLE. GET IT??? SHEESH.

In 1945 there were nearly 900,000 Jews living in communities throughout the Arab world. Today, there are fewer than 8,000.

Which means something happened after 1945. For 5 points, what could be the something that happened? If anything this proves that Arabs have the capability not to be inherently anti-Jew, as many have asserted.

Repeat after me, folks.

ISRAEL--- COUNTRY

JEWS-- PEOPLE

Criticizing Israel is legitimate as criticizing the Clinton or Bush administration policies.

Got it?

151 posted on 02/23/2003 1:13:18 PM PST by SteveH (the right to tape ducks shall not be infringed)
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Comment #152 Removed by Moderator

To: SteveH
You are an anti Semite because you demand that the Jews of Israel do not defend themselves. You are a simpleton and a bit nuts to expect Israeli Jews to conform to your leftist ideas.

This is not WW2 all over again but a bloody Jihad by Islamic murderers. And Israeli Jews have the means to defend themselves.
153 posted on 02/23/2003 1:18:06 PM PST by dennisw ( http://www.littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/weblog.php)
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To: SteveH
I do not perceive that. I think there have been families waiting since 1947 for compensation for their homes taken at that time by the Israelis. And full property rights means to be safe and secure in one's home. It does not seem that the Palestinians have that either. So they are put on a collision course with the Israeli state by Israeli state policy.

Are you an idiot or a 6 year old? Did you even read my posts about the 800,000 Jews driven from Arab nations? The score is even as far as refugees. One day your stupid Arabs will push it too far, then Mecca will get nuked. That's the endgame. The graveyard of the Jihad will be the molten glass of Mecca and Medina.

154 posted on 02/23/2003 1:22:28 PM PST by dennisw ( http://www.littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/weblog.php)
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To: SJackson
those Scandinavians all look alike

I think you caught me there...

I thought there was a general concensus on halting further settlements. At some point the progress ceased, leading to (ok--- my impression) more settlements, and then cascading, anarchy within the ranks of the Palestinian police.

The common expectation as I recall was the ceasing of new settlements. But the more general principle was a common expectation as I recall of the restoration of rights for all citizens. Don't have that? Forget peace. Don't care where it is or who's involved. Could be Hatfields and McCoys. Need restoration of rights as a prelude, or else you don't have squat. If the Israeli government is in power, only the Israeli government is in place to provide that. If they don't want to, then fine-- CUT OFF FUNDING. Why are we funding them anyway? What is this, indefinite welfare for selected foreign apartheid governments or something? Let them pay their own freight.

155 posted on 02/23/2003 1:25:18 PM PST by SteveH (the right to tape ducks shall not be infringed)
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To: DontMessWithMyCountry
Which proves that not all who call themselves of Israel are the true Israel of YAHWEH.
156 posted on 02/23/2003 1:25:50 PM PST by Hila
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To: dennisw
Several homes which Israel claims belonged to militants were destroyed. Excellent!!!

So much for trial by jury, just compensation, and the rest of the common human rights. Why are we subsidizing a police state?

157 posted on 02/23/2003 1:27:24 PM PST by SteveH (the right to tape ducks shall not be infringed)
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To: SteveH
I am criticizing Israeli policy.

You most certainly are not. You are spewing slogans and propaganda from the Hamas machine, and you insult everyone who points out your errors while arrogantly demanding that your evil nonsense be given the utmost respect.

You have not given a rational answer to even one point that I brought up, except by name-calling, insults, slogans and changing the subject.

158 posted on 02/23/2003 1:29:17 PM PST by Alouette
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To: SteveH
So much for trial by jury, just compensation, and the rest of the common human rights. Why are we subsidizing a police state?


 Israel is a democracy you craven liar. You want a police state you have Iraq, Syria and others. You are a liar! Israel has a  free press. Israel has Arabs in it's parliament and Arabs vote.

159 posted on 02/23/2003 1:30:04 PM PST by dennisw ( http://www.littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/weblog.php)
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To: I got the rope
The Israelis have gone out of their way to attempt to live with the Palistinians.

There is the slight matter of curfews, lack of trials, checkpoints, property confiscation without compensation, and so on. Yes, the Palestinians are alive. No, the Israeli government has not guaranteed common human rights. Defund them.

160 posted on 02/23/2003 1:31:01 PM PST by SteveH (the right to tape ducks shall not be infringed)
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