Skip to comments.THE STOPPING POWER OF DIFFERENT HANDGUN CARTRIDGES
Posted on 02/22/2003 8:34:22 PM PST by 2nd_Amendment_Defender
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The most revealing thing about post-event analysis in shootings is this: the additude of the the combatants makes almost more difference than the ordinance they bring to the fight.
I am a fair shot (Master grade) and do well on the range and in FATS training. However, I do not know how well I will react in a real life shooting situation, not having been in one (and hoping never to be in one). I do know that my reaction will count more than the gun I happen to have in my hand at the time. If I react with cool deliberation, I will be able to place aimed fire on target. If I go into "chicken without head" mode, I am dead meat cooling on the ground.
As far as weapon choice goes: No smaller than 38/9 mm and no larger than 45 cal. (.44 mag is out, not because of recoil, because of muzzel flash).
Next, nothing with a safety, fine motor control goes with high stress. If I can't draw and pull a trigger without flicking off some safety I don't want it. Training be d$#&**, if it doesn't have one I don't have to train around it. That kicks out 1911 pattern .45 cal weapons (sorry, I love'em but I would not carry one for self-defense) but there remains a whole passel of very nice revolvers and auto pistols which are available in that caliber range. Autos are nice for reloading in a speedy manner, revolvers are cool for six fast relible shots.
Revolver: 6" SS.357 mag Ruger Secuirity Six with adjustable mainspring, bobbed hammer and custom rounded butt. Great to carry and lethal to 100 yards (and yes, I can hit at that distance). Auto Pistol: Beretta 92G. Double action auto pistol with a decocker and no safety. An auto pistol with four controls; trigger, mag release, slide release and decock lever. All you do is draw and shoot.
For what its worth, IMHO.
Stay Safe !
It's a good thing I have about 500 .44 spl cases around somewhere. I guess I better hit the bench before she picks it up on Wednesday.
Of course that means she's going to need new leather, and a couple of speed loaders. That's ok, she loves to shop.
I was telling my 10 year old daughter the other day that if she wanted to catch a gun nut for a boyfriend/husband she should use Hoppes #9 for perfume.
Three older brothers and she is the one that asked: Daddy, do you have any guns we could clean?
Not afraid of guns, getting to be a good shot, and handles them safely.
I don't count on anything opening on winter clothing, so I want a big slow bullet that can do the job even if it acts like hardball. If it happens to expand, that's a bonus.
I will agree that the newer bullets like Gold Dot, SXT, Golden Saber all are improvements over the Hydroshok in reliable expansion. All by the same designer too.
Back in the old days when I was licensed I considered a 21/28 Thompson loaded with a drum of 180gr Super Vels the ultimate house gun. It also gave a feeling of security if I had to respond to a burglar alarm from my business.
I hope for her sake our bodies don't match. I had 2 Detonics totally customized by Briley some years ago, and a lady friend carries the engraved one concealed all the time. They need a little melting, like all 1911s and a special holster. Holster makers tend to just shorten the barrel part of a standard holster and call that a Detonics or Officer's Model holster. They tend to flop over and drop out. The holster must be designed to ride lower on the belt, so that the end of the barrel is in the same location relative to the belt that a commander's barrel end is. That puts the butt down lower on the belt which makes for more comfort and a much more secure carry. The same aplies to the short Para Ordnance pistols.
That is no longer a reasonable assumption.
Now that the understanding of the hydraulic mechanisms of expansion have fed into bullet design, expansion of hollowpoints is a significant factor in lethality.
Expansion must never be the basis for bullet selection, but considered a bonus when, and if, it occurs. Bullet selection should be determined based on penetration first, and the unexpanded diameter of the bullet second, as that is all the shooter can reliably expect.
I dunno, I've shot stacks of wet phone books with .44 mag semi wadcutter and semi wadcutter hollowpoint--Hornady XTP.
One beer case stuffed with wet phone books shot lengthwise hardly even slowed down the SWC's. However, the XTP hollow points generally stopped in the phone books, and showed expansion... Same weight 240gr and same load 23gr W-W 296.
Then again it may not be a good model for human tissue... I dunno...
I cary over the hip and under the shirt or jacket. If it's really hot, I give up and cary an AMT Backup .45 in Thunderwear.
I keep a minimum legal Remington 870 with 00 Buck. I don't have to worry about excessive penetration inside the house and the outer walls are brick.
The pinky and the springs have been moved and changed but the problem persists......It's relegated to paperweight duty till I figure this out.
Stay Safe !
Handgun bullets expand in the human target only 60-70% of the time at best. I think that when one considers stopping power of a handgun round it is best to assume worst case scenario (your hollow point does not expand 40% of the time). I do not think that all Julian Hatcher's information is out of date. The point of this article is that bullet weights over 179 grain that are .40 caliber or larger will penetrate more tissue and cause damage thereby hopefully defeating your opponent more effectively than smaller caliber speedy rounds. Some of the information may be incorrect but there are things we can learn from Hatcher's work.
In khakis, or "relaxed fit" jeans, it's just fine. I think it would be uncomfortable in tight jeans, or on horseback or motorcycle. I would also stick to a small pistol or revolver. A 1911A1 will fit, but it's uncomfortable, makes you look like a pervert and carrying there "Cocked and Locked" would make me very very nervous.
I'm carrying using the Smart Carry, a product almost identical to the Thunderwear. I usually forget I'm carrying. It is far more confortable than I ever would have believed had I not tried it. NOBODY knows you're carrying. And now I do carry at all times, instead of only sporadically like before I discovered the Smart Carry. Many US Air Marshalls are cerrying concealed using Smart Carry.
Mine has the mag release at the rear of the mag well. I smoothed and rounded it a bit when I dehorned the pistol and have never had any problem.
By the way, "Actions by T" in Sugarland, Texas can do an action job on one that makes it a lot easier to hit with.
Would a Colt Defender be small enough? I'm actually looking at the Para Ordnance PARA CARRY C6.45 LDA which is a single stack, measures 6.5" length by 5" height, I think its smaller than the Colt Defender.
My current KelTec P11 is easy to carry this way, but I want a .40 or .45. The SigSauer P229 is too big, I'm afraid, to carry this way.
I have a Para Carry that is gonna replace the AMT Backup. I really like it. It is the same size. I just haven't had enough time to put enough rounds through it to break it in and be sure it is 100% reliable.
I don't think I'd be too concerned about the safety of that level of load any more than any other in a Glock, though I do see the .40 as a better choice in longer barrelled service weapons where it can develop every bit of power and velocity possible. Flash at night from the shorter barrels also becomes an interesting consideration. The 135-grain loadings, from Cor-Bon, Federal, Pro-Load and others might be a reasonable alternative [sort of reminiscent of the usually effective 125-grain .357 Magnum JHP loadings] in a .40 shorty, though again, some personal user testing at night should take place lest any surprises pop up. My experience with the cartridge has mostly been with a Glock 22 and a Daewoo DP-40 and a couple of developmental pieces, and from comments from Memphis PD officers using the .40 in their S&W autoloaders, who look longingly at the .45 Glocks issued by another nearby department. I'd guess I've got maybe 35,000 rounds of .40 sent downrange, about a third of that at 600 rpm or so.
Happily, when my boss suggested that our personnel upgrade to .40s, I asked him if a .400 Cor-Bon in my 1911 was okay, and he cheerily said sure- I could carry whatever I liked, but the practice ammo provided would be .40 S&W...or, I could continue using my Browning GP if I wished, so long as I bring my own ammo and keep my scores up, no problem since they're usually in the top 5 of 40 shooters or so.
So the .40 and concerns thereof aren't in my immediate future, though my old Glock went to an Arkansas deputy sheriff whose department switched from the 9mm, and he's a good pal, so I remain interested in it and how it serves him. But they're sure going to be around for a while, and seem to be an acceptable compromise for some happy users, to include yourself. FTI agrees with your thoughts about the 165-grain Gold Dot, though, so your experienced and informed opinion is certainly supported by others.
Go to http://www.sigarms.com/products/mauser.asp for more information
There are some of these handguns selling right now at www.auctionarms.com and www.gunbroker.com.
Sig Sauer Mauser M2
I have read reviews about the CZ models. They are good target pistols but will not feed hollowpoints reliably. If you want a target pistol that only shoots full metal jacket ammunition it would be okay. If you are looking at buying a handgun for self defense purposes I would steer you to maybe look at the Sig Sauer Mauser M2 handguns. They are priced at around $450 at online auctions. Check out my post number 241 for more information. If you have any questions feel free to ask me.
Sig Sauer Mauser M2
Not that it matters, but did you mean caliber? When you establish yourself as an English expert, you set a pretty high standard for yourself.
DOOD! When you start waking up with "1 kt nudes",you MIGHT consider this is the first GOOD clue that maybe,just MAYBE,you need to stop drinking. I had a couple of similiar experiences that led to me stopping.
Thanks,Harp. I had skipped right over that without noticing before seeing your post. Think we should pull one of those "intervention" raids on old Bert? Next thing you know,he will be dating Star Jones and Rosie. BOTH Rosies. At the same time.
I couldn't agree more! I end up carrying mine more than all of the other handguns I have,combined.