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THE STOPPING POWER OF DIFFERENT HANDGUN CARTRIDGES
2/22/2003

Posted on 02/22/2003 8:34:22 PM PST by 2nd_Amendment_Defender

General Julian Hatcher, a noted forensic pathologist, in the early 1900’s developed a good formula to determine the theoretical stopping power of a firearm cartridge. His formula has withstood the test of time and validation from other studies and data related to stopping power.

You want a handgun cartridge that has a Hatcher value of over 50 for the most effective stopping power. Values over 55 have diminishing returns in that you don’t gain any significant increase in stopping power for the extra recoil and control you must cope with. Handgun cartridges that don’t make a value of at least 50, should not considered for self-defense. If the rating of your handgun cartridge is under 30, it only has about a 30% chance of producing a one shot stop. Hatcher Ratings of 30 to 49 raise a one shot stop to approximately a 50% chance. Ratings of 50 or higher produce a one shot stop about 90% of the time.

Handgun Cartridge Type ..................... Hatcher Rating

.45 ACP full metal jacket 230 grain .......... 49.1

.45 ACP jacketed hollow point 230 grain ...... 60.7

.44 Magnum full metal jacket 240 grain ....... 92.3

*.44 Magnum lead wad cutter 240 grain ......... 136.8

.44 Special full metal jacket 240 grain ...... 51.6

*.44 Special lead wad cutter 240 grain ............. 76.5

.41 Magnum full metal jacket 230 grain ............. 54

*.41 Magnum lead wad cutter 230 grain .............. 80

10 millimeter full metal jacket 180 grain .......... 50.3

10 millimeter jacketed hollow point 180 grain ..62.1

.40 S&W full metal jacket flat nose 180 grain ...... 53.4

.40 S&W jacketed hollow point 180 grain ....... 59.4

.38 Special full metal jacket 158 grain ...... 26.7

*.38 Special lead wad cutter 158 grain ............. 39.7

**.357 Magnum full metal jacket 158 grain ..... 32.7

**.357 Magnum lead wad cutter 158 grain ............ 48.5

.357 SIG full metal jacket 147 grain ................ 36.6

.357 SIG jacketed hollow point 147 grain ..... 45.2

9 millimeter full metal jacket 147 grain ............ 32.3

9 millimeter jacketed hollow point 147 grain ... 39.9

.380 Auto jacketed hollow point 95 grain ..... 18.3

.32 Auto jacketed hollow point 71 grain ...... 11.1

.25 Auto jacketed hollow point 50 grain ...... 3.7

.22 Long Rifle jacketed hollow point 40 grain ... 4.2

* Jacketed hollow points will have the same rating as wad cutter bullets if the bullet hollow tip is greater than 1/2 of the caliber of the bullet.

* .357 Magnum ratings are taken from a firearm with a 3 inch barrel. Longer barrels will raise the rating of the round.


TOPICS: Announcements; Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Miscellaneous
KEYWORDS: 45acp; 9mm; ammo; ammobang; bang; banglist; cary; firearms; guns; secondamendment; stoppingpower
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To: fourdeuce82d
I don't understand what exactly happened.
201 posted on 02/24/2003 9:18:18 AM PST by stevio
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To: fourdeuce82d
Your post hits the mark (so to speak).

The most revealing thing about post-event analysis in shootings is this: the additude of the the combatants makes almost more difference than the ordinance they bring to the fight.

I am a fair shot (Master grade) and do well on the range and in FATS training. However, I do not know how well I will react in a real life shooting situation, not having been in one (and hoping never to be in one). I do know that my reaction will count more than the gun I happen to have in my hand at the time. If I react with cool deliberation, I will be able to place aimed fire on target. If I go into "chicken without head" mode, I am dead meat cooling on the ground.

As far as weapon choice goes: No smaller than 38/9 mm and no larger than 45 cal. (.44 mag is out, not because of recoil, because of muzzel flash).

Next, nothing with a safety, fine motor control goes with high stress. If I can't draw and pull a trigger without flicking off some safety I don't want it. Training be d$#&**, if it doesn't have one I don't have to train around it. That kicks out 1911 pattern .45 cal weapons (sorry, I love'em but I would not carry one for self-defense) but there remains a whole passel of very nice revolvers and auto pistols which are available in that caliber range. Autos are nice for reloading in a speedy manner, revolvers are cool for six fast relible shots.

Personal choices:

Revolver: 6" SS.357 mag Ruger Secuirity Six with adjustable mainspring, bobbed hammer and custom rounded butt. Great to carry and lethal to 100 yards (and yes, I can hit at that distance). Auto Pistol: Beretta 92G. Double action auto pistol with a decocker and no safety. An auto pistol with four controls; trigger, mag release, slide release and decock lever. All you do is draw and shoot.

For what its worth, IMHO.

202 posted on 02/24/2003 9:44:47 AM PST by Dogrobber
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To: Squantos
"....I'm on the patch now :o)"


If you are anything like me, the "Patch" is a cleaning path saturated with Hoppes #9!
203 posted on 02/24/2003 9:48:48 AM PST by M_TEN_FORTYFIVE
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To: M_TEN_FORTYFIVE
LMBO !.....Hoppes # 9........I'm trying to get the Girl Friday to wear that as a Perfume.

Stay Safe !

204 posted on 02/24/2003 9:51:11 AM PST by Squantos (Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt.)
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To: Travis McGee
Mrs. Lurker just plunked down some cash for one of those Taurus .44 Spl titanium jobs. Brand new, in the box it cost her about $400.00.

It's a good thing I have about 500 .44 spl cases around somewhere. I guess I better hit the bench before she picks it up on Wednesday.

Of course that means she's going to need new leather, and a couple of speed loaders. That's ok, she loves to shop.

Regards,

L

205 posted on 02/24/2003 9:57:57 AM PST by Lurker (When I want your opinion, I'll beat it out of you.)
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To: Squantos
Good luck!

I was telling my 10 year old daughter the other day that if she wanted to catch a gun nut for a boyfriend/husband she should use Hoppes #9 for perfume.

Three older brothers and she is the one that asked: Daddy, do you have any guns we could clean?

Not afraid of guns, getting to be a good shot, and handles them safely.

206 posted on 02/24/2003 10:13:12 AM PST by M_TEN_FORTYFIVE
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To: Lurker
Tell me how slick its fit and function are when she gets it, I have been hearing about uneven production.
207 posted on 02/24/2003 10:23:30 AM PST by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
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To: M_TEN_FORTYFIVE
LOL....Good for her ! Stay Safe !
208 posted on 02/24/2003 10:37:45 AM PST by Squantos (Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt.)
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To: PatrioticAmerican
Those are the worst clothes packers of all; slow, big, and easily flattened.

I don't count on anything opening on winter clothing, so I want a big slow bullet that can do the job even if it acts like hardball. If it happens to expand, that's a bonus.

I will agree that the newer bullets like Gold Dot, SXT, Golden Saber all are improvements over the Hydroshok in reliable expansion. All by the same designer too.

Back in the old days when I was licensed I considered a 21/28 Thompson loaded with a drum of 180gr Super Vels the ultimate house gun. It also gave a feeling of security if I had to respond to a burglar alarm from my business.

So9

209 posted on 02/24/2003 10:44:11 AM PST by Servant of the Nine (Republicans for Sharpton)
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To: earplug
I own an original Detonic. I consider it heavy, chunky and hard to carry due to its short barral and weight. The multiple sharp edges don't help. Does your body and dress match the lady in question?

I hope for her sake our bodies don't match. I had 2 Detonics totally customized by Briley some years ago, and a lady friend carries the engraved one concealed all the time. They need a little melting, like all 1911s and a special holster. Holster makers tend to just shorten the barrel part of a standard holster and call that a Detonics or Officer's Model holster. They tend to flop over and drop out. The holster must be designed to ride lower on the belt, so that the end of the barrel is in the same location relative to the belt that a commander's barrel end is. That puts the butt down lower on the belt which makes for more comfort and a much more secure carry. The same aplies to the short Para Ordnance pistols.

So9

210 posted on 02/24/2003 10:52:25 AM PST by Servant of the Nine (Republicans for Sharpton)
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To: Servant of the Nine
Do you carry inside, over you hip or thigh?
I have looked at a alloy Kimber. Have wondered about getting a alloy frame for the Detonic. I am happy with the Smith. I carry it in a leather vest pocket.
211 posted on 02/24/2003 11:02:35 AM PST by earplug
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To: archy
I carry a Beretta 96, shooting 1250fps with 155gr Gold Dot. Not certain what a 3.5" 40 will do. If the 45 is any indication, there shouldn't be much of a loss. Maybe 1150fps for factory.

According to several decent web sites, the factory loaded Gold Dot had only a 50fps loss between a 5 and a 3.5 barrel. Factory was listed as 1210 for a 5" and 1148 for a 3.5".

Still, 1100fps is certainly a safe load in a 40 using a 155gr GD.
212 posted on 02/24/2003 11:47:57 AM PST by PatrioticAmerican (Arm Up! They Have!)
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To: archy
P.S. The Glock 27 was the test gun.
213 posted on 02/24/2003 11:48:22 AM PST by PatrioticAmerican (Arm Up! They Have!)
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To: Travis McGee
We have several Taurus. Fit and finish was excellent with one, and stiff on another. Sent it back, and the factory replaced the cylinder and filed and polished the frame. The result is an excellent firearm, but it wasn't that way off the shelf. I have heard the same stories from others: Some excellent, some not. The firearm itself is an excellent design, just sloppy manufacturing.

The great news is that Taurus did honor their lifetime warranty without any problems whatsoever, and the turn around was only two weeks from ship to receive. Not bad.
214 posted on 02/24/2003 11:52:11 AM PST by PatrioticAmerican (Arm Up! They Have!)
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To: Polycarp
Good info. Sounds like multiple shots are recommended. An "easy" shot or two to the chest and another to the head.
215 posted on 02/24/2003 12:01:11 PM PST by 1Old Pro
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To: PatrioticAmerican
Can't complain about that!
216 posted on 02/24/2003 12:03:42 PM PST by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
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To: Servant of the Nine
My fav house gun is a shotgun with 3" #2 steel. The testing on various objects such as clothes and walls suggests serious damage to soft targets while no overpenetration to adjoining homes. Pick any shotgun, but a Mossberg 590 is my choice, and a O/U Baikal is next to it.
217 posted on 02/24/2003 12:09:15 PM PST by PatrioticAmerican (Arm Up! They Have!)
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To: 2nd_Amendment_Defender
* Jacketed hollow points will have the same rating as wad cutter bullets if the bullet hollow tip is greater than 1/2 of the caliber of the bullet.

That is no longer a reasonable assumption.

Now that the understanding of the hydraulic mechanisms of expansion have fed into bullet design, expansion of hollowpoints is a significant factor in lethality.

218 posted on 02/24/2003 12:19:39 PM PST by Cogadh na Sith (The Guns of Brixton)
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To: Squantos
Hmmm, read through Polycarp's excellent article. Maybe I gotta relook the above:

Expansion must never be the basis for bullet selection, but considered a bonus when, and if, it occurs. Bullet selection should be determined based on penetration first, and the unexpanded diameter of the bullet second, as that is all the shooter can reliably expect.

I dunno, I've shot stacks of wet phone books with .44 mag semi wadcutter and semi wadcutter hollowpoint--Hornady XTP.

One beer case stuffed with wet phone books shot lengthwise hardly even slowed down the SWC's. However, the XTP hollow points generally stopped in the phone books, and showed expansion... Same weight 240gr and same load 23gr W-W 296.

Then again it may not be a good model for human tissue... I dunno...

219 posted on 02/24/2003 12:26:08 PM PST by Cogadh na Sith (The Guns of Brixton)
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To: earplug
Do you carry inside, over you hip or thigh?

I cary over the hip and under the shirt or jacket. If it's really hot, I give up and cary an AMT Backup .45 in Thunderwear.

So9

220 posted on 02/24/2003 12:40:06 PM PST by Servant of the Nine (Republicans for Sharpton)
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To: chookter
Comments on my post # 39 this thread......Stay safe !
221 posted on 02/24/2003 12:40:38 PM PST by Squantos (Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt.)
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To: PatrioticAmerican
My fav house gun is a shotgun with 3" #2 steel.

I keep a minimum legal Remington 870 with 00 Buck. I don't have to worry about excessive penetration inside the house and the outer walls are brick.

So9

222 posted on 02/24/2003 12:41:59 PM PST by Servant of the Nine (Republicans for Sharpton)
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To: Servant of the Nine
I have a older AMT backup in 45 also. Does yours have a problem regarding your shooting hands pinky hitting the euro style mag release under recoil ? Or just recoil dropping the mag sometimes ?

The pinky and the springs have been moved and changed but the problem persists......It's relegated to paperweight duty till I figure this out.

Stay Safe !

223 posted on 02/24/2003 12:46:32 PM PST by Squantos (Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt.)
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To: Servant of the Nine
" AMT Backup .45 in Thunderwear"

The Thunderwear comfy?
224 posted on 02/24/2003 1:19:14 PM PST by PatrioticAmerican (Arm Up! They Have!)
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To: chookter
That is no longer a reasonable assumption. Now that the understanding of the hydraulic mechanisms of expansion have fed into bullet design, expansion of hollowpoints is a significant factor in lethality.

Handgun bullets expand in the human target only 60-70% of the time at best. I think that when one considers stopping power of a handgun round it is best to assume worst case scenario (your hollow point does not expand 40% of the time). I do not think that all Julian Hatcher's information is out of date. The point of this article is that bullet weights over 179 grain that are .40 caliber or larger will penetrate more tissue and cause damage thereby hopefully defeating your opponent more effectively than smaller caliber speedy rounds. Some of the information may be incorrect but there are things we can learn from Hatcher's work.

225 posted on 02/24/2003 1:40:41 PM PST by 2nd_Amendment_Defender
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To: 2nd_Amendment_Defender
I agree, look at my post right under the post to you where I backpedaled furiously....
226 posted on 02/24/2003 1:49:05 PM PST by Cogadh na Sith (The Guns of Brixton)
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To: PatrioticAmerican
The Thunderwear comfy?

In khakis, or "relaxed fit" jeans, it's just fine. I think it would be uncomfortable in tight jeans, or on horseback or motorcycle. I would also stick to a small pistol or revolver. A 1911A1 will fit, but it's uncomfortable, makes you look like a pervert and carrying there "Cocked and Locked" would make me very very nervous.

So9

227 posted on 02/24/2003 2:01:45 PM PST by Servant of the Nine (Republicans for Sharpton)
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To: PatrioticAmerican
The Thunderwear comfy?

I'm carrying using the Smart Carry, a product almost identical to the Thunderwear. I usually forget I'm carrying. It is far more confortable than I ever would have believed had I not tried it. NOBODY knows you're carrying. And now I do carry at all times, instead of only sporadically like before I discovered the Smart Carry. Many US Air Marshalls are cerrying concealed using Smart Carry.

Try it.

228 posted on 02/24/2003 2:05:25 PM PST by Polycarp
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To: Squantos
I have a older AMT backup in 45 also. Does yours have a problem regarding your shooting hands pinky hitting the euro style mag release under recoil ? Or just recoil dropping the mag sometimes ?

Mine has the mag release at the rear of the mag well. I smoothed and rounded it a bit when I dehorned the pistol and have never had any problem.

By the way, "Actions by T" in Sugarland, Texas can do an action job on one that makes it a lot easier to hit with.

So9

229 posted on 02/24/2003 2:06:41 PM PST by Servant of the Nine (Republicans for Sharpton)
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To: Servant of the Nine
I would also stick to a small pistol or revolver

Would a Colt Defender be small enough? I'm actually looking at the Para Ordnance PARA CARRY C6.45 LDA which is a single stack, measures 6.5" length by 5" height, I think its smaller than the Colt Defender.

My current KelTec P11 is easy to carry this way, but I want a .40 or .45. The SigSauer P229 is too big, I'm afraid, to carry this way.

230 posted on 02/24/2003 2:12:14 PM PST by Polycarp
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To: Polycarp
Would a Colt Defender be small enough? I'm actually looking at the Para Ordnance PARA CARRY C6.45 LDA

I have a Para Carry that is gonna replace the AMT Backup. I really like it. It is the same size. I just haven't had enough time to put enough rounds through it to break it in and be sure it is 100% reliable.

So9

231 posted on 02/24/2003 2:41:50 PM PST by Servant of the Nine (Republicans for Sharpton)
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To: PatrioticAmerican
Still, 1100 fps is certainly a safe load in a 40 using a 155gr GD.

I don't think I'd be too concerned about the safety of that level of load any more than any other in a Glock, though I do see the .40 as a better choice in longer barrelled service weapons where it can develop every bit of power and velocity possible. Flash at night from the shorter barrels also becomes an interesting consideration. The 135-grain loadings, from Cor-Bon, Federal, Pro-Load and others might be a reasonable alternative [sort of reminiscent of the usually effective 125-grain .357 Magnum JHP loadings] in a .40 shorty, though again, some personal user testing at night should take place lest any surprises pop up. My experience with the cartridge has mostly been with a Glock 22 and a Daewoo DP-40 and a couple of developmental pieces, and from comments from Memphis PD officers using the .40 in their S&W autoloaders, who look longingly at the .45 Glocks issued by another nearby department. I'd guess I've got maybe 35,000 rounds of .40 sent downrange, about a third of that at 600 rpm or so.

Happily, when my boss suggested that our personnel upgrade to .40s, I asked him if a .400 Cor-Bon in my 1911 was okay, and he cheerily said sure- I could carry whatever I liked, but the practice ammo provided would be .40 S&W...or, I could continue using my Browning GP if I wished, so long as I bring my own ammo and keep my scores up, no problem since they're usually in the top 5 of 40 shooters or so.

So the .40 and concerns thereof aren't in my immediate future, though my old Glock went to an Arkansas deputy sheriff whose department switched from the 9mm, and he's a good pal, so I remain interested in it and how it serves him. But they're sure going to be around for a while, and seem to be an acceptable compromise for some happy users, to include yourself. FTI agrees with your thoughts about the 165-grain Gold Dot, though, so your experienced and informed opinion is certainly supported by others.

-archy-/-

232 posted on 02/24/2003 2:55:07 PM PST by archy (Keep in mind that the milk of human kindness comes from a beast that is both cannibal and a vampire.)
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To: Servant of the Nine
"makes you look like a pervert"

I see, the "Clinton Holster"! LOL! Thanks. I have been wanting to try one for loose fitting shorts, and I think I will. Not to mention, it gives me a good reason to get a Kimber Ultralight.
233 posted on 02/24/2003 3:12:02 PM PST by PatrioticAmerican (Arm Up! They Have!)
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To: archy
"Flash at night from the shorter barrels also becomes an interesting consideration."

My wife had a Cougar, a short barrel. The flash at indoor ranges was seriously noticeable. I handload and create loads for “personal protection”. Keeping to safe loads for SAAMI, but a 155gr at 1250fps produces too much flash in a short barrel. For the 5” Beretta, the flash is normal. The Cougar kept to 1050fps for a 155gr produced an acceptable flash and recoil.

For an H&K 45, I loaded a 200gr at 1,000fps (std 45, by the book), and a 185gr at 1,200fps. The 200 @ 1000 produced the most flash. The 185gr was far more accurate at 25yrds.
234 posted on 02/24/2003 3:20:26 PM PST by PatrioticAmerican (Arm Up! They Have!)
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To: Polycarp
Thanks. I'll certainly consider it. Easter is coming(Not even God knows why, but the wife, bless her generous heart, likes to buy me firearms for holidays) and I would like to consider a 1911 variant. I don't shoot the 45, as I shoot 40 for autos. Everyone needs a good 45, so I am considering the options with a preference for carry. I have a variety of weapons choices, but I like to stick to a few favorites, and I don't have a good summer carry in auto. I think a slimmer 45 would do the trick, nicely.
235 posted on 02/24/2003 3:24:21 PM PST by PatrioticAmerican (Arm Up! They Have!)
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To: fourdeuce82d
Better a .25 on target (up the nose) than a .45 to the toe. <PYeah--Mossad does just fine w/.22LR through the eyeball.
236 posted on 02/24/2003 5:48:22 PM PST by ninenot
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To: Super Mak90kid
Unfortunately, my H&K USP 9mm is "on target" only if I am using 147 grain round-nose or JHP. I'll just have to live with the 80% probability, I guess.

Of course, 80%x2 (double tap) is a 160% possibility. Enough for most folks.
237 posted on 02/24/2003 5:51:07 PM PST by ninenot
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To: 2nd_Amendment_Defender
Anyone have any experience with a CZ 75 or similar CZ models?
238 posted on 02/24/2003 6:14:41 PM PST by Atchafalaya
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To: Atchafalaya
They are excellent firearms IMO.

Regards,

L

239 posted on 02/24/2003 8:44:50 PM PST by Lurker (When I want your opinion, I'll beat it out of you.)
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To: 2nd_Amendment_Defender
If you like Glocks, ya' might be interested in The Glock List mailing list. It's the best Glock list I've found, with the proviso that it is pretty OT, discussing everything from Pizzas to Fords to Dead Cat Bounces.

To subscribe, go here:
http://www.glocklist.com/

Ed
240 posted on 02/25/2003 1:48:37 AM PST by Sir_Ed
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To: Polycarp
If you like Sig Sauer handguns, you might want to take a look at the Sig Sauer Mauser M2 handguns. I found some online auctions priced at around $450 that shoot .40 S&W and .45 ACP. They are small enough for concealed carry and only weigh about 29 ounces. The .40 S&W holds 10+1 rounds and the .45 ACP holds 8+1 rounds.

Go to http://www.sigarms.com/products/mauser.asp for more information

There are some of these handguns selling right now at www.auctionarms.com and www.gunbroker.com.


Sig Sauer Mauser M2

241 posted on 02/25/2003 3:57:25 AM PST by 2nd_Amendment_Defender
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To: Atchafalaya
Anyone have any experience with a CZ 75 or similar CZ models?

I have read reviews about the CZ models. They are good target pistols but will not feed hollowpoints reliably. If you want a target pistol that only shoots full metal jacket ammunition it would be okay. If you are looking at buying a handgun for self defense purposes I would steer you to maybe look at the Sig Sauer Mauser M2 handguns. They are priced at around $450 at online auctions. Check out my post number 241 for more information. If you have any questions feel free to ask me.


Sig Sauer Mauser M2

242 posted on 02/25/2003 4:05:22 AM PST by 2nd_Amendment_Defender
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To: Voice in your head
Yes - it is ruled as a non armor piercing round by friendly folks at the BATF.
243 posted on 02/25/2003 5:57:40 AM PST by fiftycal (9MM On Steroids)
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To: merak
Hate to say it, but it sounds like the ultimate cop gun would shoot 22 calibre ammo with some sort of a nerve agent

Not that it matters, but did you mean caliber? When you establish yourself as an English expert, you set a pretty high standard for yourself.

244 posted on 02/25/2003 7:14:30 AM PST by honway
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To: honway
The difference between calibre and caliber is meaningless; the difference between 'was dragged' and 'was drug' isn't quite meaningless.
245 posted on 02/25/2003 2:22:24 PM PST by merak
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To: merak
Once you post here awhile you may tire of giving English lessons.
246 posted on 02/25/2003 2:27:20 PM PST by honway
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To: razorback-bert
failing that a 1 kt nude should settled the hash.

DOOD! When you start waking up with "1 kt nudes",you MIGHT consider this is the first GOOD clue that maybe,just MAYBE,you need to stop drinking. I had a couple of similiar experiences that led to me stopping.

247 posted on 02/26/2003 7:37:46 AM PST by sneakypete
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To: harpseal
Re: The 1 kt nude. That must be one ugly unclothed to be that effective

Thanks,Harp. I had skipped right over that without noticing before seeing your post. Think we should pull one of those "intervention" raids on old Bert? Next thing you know,he will be dating Star Jones and Rosie. BOTH Rosies. At the same time.

248 posted on 02/26/2003 7:40:27 AM PST by sneakypete
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To: Travis McGee
Get a five shot .44 special revolver, you won't be sorry!

I couldn't agree more! I end up carrying mine more than all of the other handguns I have,combined.

249 posted on 02/26/2003 7:47:34 AM PST by sneakypete
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To: sneakypete; razorback-bert
To date O'donut he would need a sex change first and I somehow do not think Bert would go for that
250 posted on 02/26/2003 7:57:11 AM PST by harpseal (Stay well - Stay safe - Stay armed - Yorktown)
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