Kurds and Turks [Turkish Editorial]

Milliyet ^ | 4/11/2003 | Taha Akyol

[Illbay]

The impression I got from the article was that it was saying "because Kurds inhabit a mountainous country and are 'cut off' from civilization they haven't been able to form a state."

That was my point. Nomadic peoples have also been able to form nations. E.g. the Mongols.

[jackbob]

your new buddies Talabani and Barzani

That's news to me. I do not even recognize their names.

I'll admit, that I tend to believe that where a people seek independence, my first reaction is to say let them have it. That is not an absolute with me. I've discovered far to many times how wrong I was (i.e. my original opinion in support of Kosovo's revolt against Serbia). While my ignorance may be with out limits, it does not mean that I am dead set on one conclusion. I for one, will consider your arguments when you make them. But you have not as yet proved to me that all is peaceful.

Peace through out history has been an dream we all want. War is a fact.

[jackbob]

I am very leary of attempts to paint causes as being communist, because I know how the Communists will take on a cause for purposes other than what other supporters of the cause want. But your link was worth the read. Thanks.

[Arioch7]

I have not finished reading all of the replies yet but thanks for the article. A lot of Americans can not understand that cultural differences in Europe and Asia Minor are nothing like what we experience here.

My financial planner is Armenian but his origins are Turkish. I asked him how his family felt about Turkey. He told me his father was an Officer in the Turkish Navy. THATS integration.

I was at a debate today among some boycotters of the French and some people said "I am French-Canadian!" or "I am of French Blood!".

I laughed and said that we were all American Citizens in this room and that comes first. Everyone agreed with me. I have Slavic blood in me and I do not feel the least bit guilty if I disparage the policies of a Slavic Government.

Damn, I don't know if I am getting my point across but I think you know what I mean. Every country has been guilty of something in hindsight but that doesn't neccesarily mean anything in the context of history. The US has done everything in its history to the benefit of the people of the United States. I believe Turkey has done the same(In reagrds to Turkey). Thats not to say everything has been PERFECT, but this is not a perfect world.

Add the fact that as the article stated, Turkey was an empire! The Ottoman Empire was the largest empire in the world if I am not mistaken. Land mass, anyway!.

After the collapse of Empire it is a wonder that the nation-state of Turkey survived at all. I might add that Kamal Ataturk did not bring western ideas into Turkey to be a vassal to the West, but to be a COMPETITOR with the West. I mean that in a free-market good way. As in, also a trading partner and always a friend.

I could go on but... I do not want to ramble. LOL!

[Arioch7]

They dont teach anything at all about it in the Primary grades.

Most Americans have no idea what a Kurd is until they heard it from the news.

I am sure the college students are taught to hate you as a matter of course.

[jackbob]

OK- you point is well taken. On this issue I'll start carefully examining appearances, which cannot be trusted. I'll concede that the situation may be a lot more peaceful between the two populations than I might even imagine. But I must point out that know of many Palestenian and Israeli citizens who are close friends, living, working and socializing with each other. I likewise cannot let that fact over ride the reality of the conflict between the two. Nor can I let it interfere with my judgment that both sides have very legitimate security concerns, both long and short range.

[stripes1776]

Which reads:

1. Muslims are, generally speaking, unable to maintain states that include other ethnic/cultural groups.
2. People who have ruled empires have some kind of problem getting along with other people.
3. Europeans are more peaceful, negotiate and co-exist better.

Is this what you mean?
May I suggest reading up on Byzantine and Ottoman history?

Is that what I mean?

• No, greekboy, that is not exactly what I mean. None of the language groups living in the Alps and Jura Mountains ever ruled over the other language groups in that area. Their association developed through negotiation and petition through legal structures, not military conquest.
• The French, Germans, and Italians of Switzerland are not France, Germany, or Italy. Please look on a map. You will see that Switzerland is a tiny country. It is in Europe, but it is not Europe. Europe is much bigger and has many other countries in it, some of which did establish empires.
• There is a pendulum that swings through Islam. At times, it has been tolerant of minorities it rules. At other times, it is has been quite brutal. It's the same story with empires all over the world, whether European, Chinese, etc.
• In the case of the Ottomans, they were not able to impose their language and culture upon the Muslim peoples they conquered. So they converted to the religion of their subjects. It prolonged an Empire that should have crumbled long before it did.
• There are no democratic institutions in Arabic speaking countries. This is a political structure that is quite rare in Muslim countries, with the one exception of Turkey. But Turkey has had a lot of contact with Europe, even to the point of changing the orthography of their language from Arabic script to Roman.
• There are exceptions to every rule.

[a_Turk]

Barzani is the leader of the Kurdistan Democratic Party, and Talabani the leader of the Kurdistan Patriotic Union. These two have been at each other's throats for most of the last decade. Both are in northern Irak with Talabani's PUK by Iran where the terrorist Islamists were hiding in Halabja, the place Saddam gassed, and you now bombed to smitherenes, and Barzani's KDP by the Turkish border where the Marxist terrorist PKK (Kurdistan Worker's party) is still hiding in the mountains..

[6ppc]

Germans and Turks

Gerks?

[a_Turk]

>> No, greekboy

Hey, careful how you address my friend.. Very un-American.

Also, you are confused in your history:

>> In the case of the Ottomans, they were not able to impose their language and culture upon the Muslim peoples they conquered.

This is entirely incorrect. The Ottomans (1299-1919) were founded by Osman, son of Ertugrul from the ashes of the Selchuk empire, who were already Muslims..

One cannot know everything, granted.. But one should not pretend either..

[a_Turk]

>> I am sure the college students are taught to hate you as a matter of course.

I know! Some alliance!

[6ppc]

Your media bites not only when it comes to bashing you and your war effort in Irak, but also when it comes to anything it reports about us and our ancient allies the Kurds.

Our media hypes everything far beyond any reasonable excitement level. Every outlet, including Fox, report every story as if it is BREAKING! NOW! Then they play it over and over.

Kurdish victories in the north are the hot story at the moment. A week from now someone might do a story on the background of those forces, but it will be buried by BREAKING! NOW! news of the moment.

[a_Turk]

>> Gerks?

Bingo! See how handy we are? LOL!

[6ppc]

Couldn't help myself! 8^)

[stripes1776]

That was my point. Nomadic peoples have also been able to form nations. E.g. the Mongols.

Oh, okay, I see what you are saying, although my take is a bit different. I don't think that nomadic peoples form states. Only former nomadic people form states. You can slash and burn your way across a continent, but if you are going to rule an empire, you need to put down some roots, build a capitol city, have seats of administration in the provinces, etc.

I thought that his point was that the psychology of the mountain nomads was different from the psychology of the planes nomads. And that was why the Ottomans developed an empire, and the Kurds did not.

Perhaps the real reason is the Kurds remained nomads, and the Ottomans gave up their nomadic ways, became city dwellers long enough to establish an empire. Or maybe the Ottomans were just a lot better at killing people than the Kurds.

[a_Turk]

>> Or maybe the Ottomans were just a lot better at killing people than the Kurds.

See now, if that were the case, we wouldn't have to deal with any of these people todayt, would we? There'd be no Arabs, no Serbs, no Greeks, no Albanians, etc, etc, etc.

Fact is that the Ottoman empire was ruthless to her enemies during war and just as kind if not better to her subjects compared to the rest of the world's rulers were to theirs back then.

[Arioch7]

Does your judgement take Syria into account?

How about the REAL bad boys from the 80s like Hamas and Hezbollah. Abu Nidal and the bad boys of modern terrorism like Arrafat?

Read some history and get a clue. I came at this from the Military Perspective and when I got to the cultural reasons for the war on Israel, I was shocked.

Because that is what it is, the WAR ON ISRAEL. The entire basis of your argument is false so to even debate with you gives your cause a validity which it does not deserve.

Jews... does it ever end?

[Arioch7]

LOL! They are taught to hate Conservatives to. We are the Devil.

[a_Turk]

>> Damn, I don't know if I am getting my point across but I think you know what I mean.

I know EXACTLY what you mean.

>> The Ottoman Empire was the largest empire in the world if I am not mistaken. Land mass, anyway!.

If you included its sphere of influence, then that stretched it from Morocco to Afghanistan..

[jackbob]

OK - you get a temporary win with me. I'll now search out the opposing view. If I do not find it, then that will result in an automatic reversal of my opinion (by default). In that case, no one will ever hear a positive word from me again about Kurdish independence.

Your proof that there are Marxists and terrorists connected with them does not influence my opinion in the slightest as to their cause. It does however effect my feelings about the leadership they have allowed themselves to be represented by. That of course has to be weighed against the particular circumstances if any, that may have necessitated it.

If however, I cannot establish that they are substantially more than a bunch of bandits, or more than a bunch of communists, then I'll become aggressive in my denunciation of them. I have little use for either.

Its funny, I became a supporter of a greater Kurdistan being carved out of Iran, Iraq, and Turkey, well over 20 years ago. Today I have read more on the topic, than I have in all 52 years of my life. Its just not been a side topic of interest to me. It now is.

Thanks for upsetting the quiet complacency of my apple cart.