photo by Cvetin Cilimanov for Antiwar.comPosted on 05/20/2003 8:51:59 AM PDT by Destro
Wolfowitz in Skopje – What Next for Macedonia?
by Christopher Deliso
May 20, 2003
A total eclipse of the full moon on Friday morning, street warfare between Macedonians and Albanians in Tetovo on Friday night – could these portentous events have had anything to do with the next day's visit from US Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz?
Über-hawk Wolfowitz touched down briefly in Skopje on the third leg of his Balkan tour. At his first stop (Sarajevo) Wolfowitz oversaw the signing of a treaty guaranteeing that Bosnia will never extradite an American soldier to the International Criminal Court (ICC) for war crimes. At the second stop, Kosovo's Camp Bondsteel, Wolfowitz inspected the troops at this all but forgotten imperial outpost.
Wolfowitz's trip to Macedonia was decidedly low-key, and lasted only a few hours. Officially, he came for the photo op and speech praising the Iraq-bound Macedonian conscripts. However, the fact that he also met in private with former NLA boss Ali Ahmeti, President Boris Trajkovski, and later with Prime Minister Branko Crvenkovski and Defense Minister Vlade Buchkovski seems to indicate that Rumsfeld's right-hand man came to talk business.
Operation Evade Journalists
However, it is slightly unclear as to what that business was. Wolfowitz's entourage, which included US Ambassador Laurence Butler and the proverbial men in dark suits and sunglasses talking on mobile phones, were escorted briskly in and out of government buildings all morning, leaving little chance for interrogation. Although Wolfowitz answered two or three mundane questions in a mundane way when meeting with Trajkovski, no real explanation for his visit was given. And the US Embassy on Saturday claimed to have no one available who could speak on the matter.
Saturday's final photo op for Wolfowitz was the Macedonian Army's Ilinden barracks, a sprawling encampment situated on a high wooded bluff overlooking Skopje. Here Wolfowitz gave a short speech to the 39 Iraq-bound Macedonian soldiers. Among them are members of the Wolves (special forces), as well as army medics.
Flanked by officials, Wolfowitz stood opposite the neatly-arrayed Macedonian troops and thanked them for playing their part in the "liberation" of the Iraqi people from "…one of the worst dictators of modern history." He also alluded to the US-imposed Ohrid Agreement when praising the Macedonians for "settling issues by talking instead of by fighting." He then proceeded down the row, cordially shaking hands with each of the conscripts. Much snapping and flashing ensued from the thicket of cameras adjacent.
photo by Cvetin Cilimanov for Antiwar.com
(Excerpt) Read more at antiwar.com ...
When will you accept that doing nothing as Milosevic's Army and paramilitaries rampaged through yet another region of the Balkans was a worse idea?
And while you're at it, we know that our special forces worked with the KLA, but as to arming and funding them, we're back to that whole "proof" thing you aren't liking too much, aren't we?
Your question was answered back in post #82.
Other than definitively scuttling the Serb attempt to create Greater Serbia and giving a generation of web based disinformation artists grist for their mills, the effects of recognition shall have to be demonstrated to have worsened the situation.
Are you up to it? I doubt it, but what the hell, you may surprise me yet.
Neither your ability to back up your position nor your graceless drawing out of the inevitable in admitting error surprise me, inquest.
Again, par for the course.
You're just hell bent on not letting the facts get in your way, are you?
While you're on the subject, how many Serbs fled the RSK in 1995, and how many Croats fled the same areas in 1991?
C'mon - time for you to show that you have some semblance of a clue as to what you're talking about by backing up your statement with some data.
You're confounding different subjects (and I think you know it). Are you referring to a single operation in 1991, or many different operations? And do we have some magic way of distinguishing between people who were merely fleeing fighting and those who were actually driven out deliberately, like they were in 1995?
Again, you picked a subject where your lack of knowledge boomeranged right back in your face, and another golden example of this is the fact that the Krajina leadership ordered an evacuation of their population on the first day of Storm, so if you want to play your stupid little reindeer games, knock yourself out - refugees are refugees, and the Serbs created more non-Serb refugees than they themselves incurred in every little war Milosevic started and ultimately lost.
You've turned into mere entertainment, inquest - you've proven neither a researcher nor a thinker.
I'll have to ask you to back up this one. That it was the largest ethnic cleansing operation since WWII wasn't something I made up, nor was it from some fringe web site. It came straight out of the NY Times on March 21, 1999 (abstract here. For the full article, you'll either have to pay for it or get it from microfilm) - a publication not exactly renowned for its rampant Serbophilia.
refugees are refugees
Not your most profound statement of the thread, Hoplite (and that's saying something). Yup, refugees are refugees, but not all refugees are evidence of ethnic cleansing. One day you'll learn that all the facts in the world aren't going to help you if you don't know how to navigate from premise to conclusion.
Ummm.....the RSK ordered their own to flee....the HV didn't evict all 125,000 as most of them fled prior to the arrival of the HV.
Fleeing fighting above, fleeing fighting below.
This is a post from another forum and it's very interesting as yonorone mentioned the '200,000 Serbs in Croatia today'.:
Here it is:
You stated:” I don't even know what this whole discussion is about? I just have the information available to me and though I would help.”
Well I was referring to Ana’s post since the numbers she provided weren’t complete. And these numbers have a lot to do with Milosevic’s trial. - Serbian rebellion in Croatia or Milosevic caused it.
You said: ”I have never heard of a census taking place in Croatia in 1996. If you have any such results please share them with me as I collect such data.” If you are interested I’ll give you some leads:
http://www.geocities.com/krajinaforce8/zlocini/37.html http://www.caa.org.yu/Arhiva/Srpski/popis.htm http://www.aimpress.org/dyn/pubs/archive/data/200207/20701-001-pubs-lju.htm
You said: “I agree with you that many Serbs left the Soc. Rep. of Croatia not just in the 1981-91 interval but from 1945 onward.” I was referring to census from 1991 doubting that it was complete and that many Serbs already left before census 1991. - Referring to greater pressure from Croatian government and only to 1990/91 year.
I doubted Croatian census from 2001 too: Why, please read this:
http://www.novine.ca/ARHIVA/2002/21_06_02/bivsa_yu.html
And read this: You’ll find that not only they did ethnical cleansing but as well that they want to negate it. Blaming downturn trend in population to fall of birth rate, not even referring to the trend in 1980ies. http://www.hrz.hr/aktiv/no.htm
Why did you say:” from 1945 onward”? Do not forget 1914 (you said you are collecting such a data) 1918, rough period from 1929 - 1934, 1937 and formation of “Banovina Hrvatska” and the roughest one in 1941 (Number of killed? Number of Converted? And 300,000 left to Serbia ), and 1941-1945.
If we do not go into that “far” history from 1914, (as we are always blamed) we can only then refer to census in 1981. And numbers are:
In 1981 there was 11,5 percent of Serbs and 8.24 % of Yugoslavs, Others (or “neopredeljeni”) 3.61% out of 4,578 million inhabitants in Croatia.
Then: Serbs: 11,5 % out of 4,578,000 = 526, 470;
Yugoslavs: 8.24% out of 4,578,000 = 377,227;
Others: 3.61% out of 4,578,000 = 165,265;
If we assume that half of the Serbs declared themselves as Yugoslavs without “others” That is around 188,000.
So the number of Serbs in 1981 would be close to: 526,470 + 188,000 = 714,470;
If you add to that number average birth rate in Croatia and Slovenia (as lowest one in Yu) during 80ies you got number close to 900,000 Serbs living in Croatia on the beginning of nineties, without “indeterminate“ (neopredeljenih) Wow - did I make up all of that?
900,000 - 200,000 = 700,000
Does anyone have data about the number of Serbs within the borders of today's Croatia (percent of the total population and total numbers) for the years 1914, 1918, 1941, 1945 and maybe somewhere in between 1945 and 1981?
Yes, sort of. McDonalds in Serbia is like trying to sell fridges to Eskimos. Tough terrain.
It's a valid point.
Cuz it's crap.
Just because you say it doesn't mean it's crap. You're gonna have to back up your accusation.
Is there something wrong with the average birth rate or something else in particular that you disagree with?
So, you just signed right up on this board to tell me this, on your very first post, no less! I asked Hoplite and I'm asking you to back up this assumption. Name the official(s) who supposedly issued this "order", and what powers (t)he(y) had to enforce it. Supposed the local Serb residents declined the invitation to abandon the homes their ancestors had inhabited for centuries through thick and thin, and hastily pack up their belongings to some uncertain destination and uncertain future. What were these officials going to do? Fine them??
It's a pretty safe bet that if the locals are going to take such a drastic step, it's because they perceived a credible threat to their very lives. And given what was contained in the war crimes indictment against the Croats, their perception seemed right on target.
Your "they left on their own" line is just pure recycled Croat propaganda. Not even NATO appears to consider it credible.
Fleeing fighting above, fleeing fighting below.
Get real. There was scarcely any "fighting" in Operation Storm. It was just Croatian forces having their way with the place, and you know it.
That it was the largest ethnic cleansing operation since WWII wasn't something I made up, nor was it from some fringe web site.
I don't care who said it - it's incorrect. Storm may have been the most concentrated if you consider refugee movement/time, but the top two contestants in the 'create a refugee nightmare' are Milosevic, for Kosovo '99 (800,000+), and Karadzic, for Bosnia '92-95 (over a million).
Sustained campaigns of ethnic cleansing by Bosnian Serbs since 1992 have resulted in the likely deaths of tens of thousands of non-Serbs, the displacement of hundreds of thousands more, and radical change in Bosnia's demographics. Up to 90 percent of non-Serbs who lived in the 65 percent of Bosnia now under Serb control have been forced to flee, were detained, or were killed. Well over 3,000 settlements--mainly in Serb-controlled areas--have been destroyed and some 1.3 million Bosnians, primarily Muslims, have been displaced within Bosnia, mainly as a result of ethnic cleansing. Source
Yup, refugees are refugees, but not all refugees are evidence of ethnic cleansing. One day you'll learn that all the facts in the world aren't going to help you if you don't know how to navigate from premise to conclusion.
What are you saying here?
Are people who fled Nationalist Serb control economic refugees or some other such nonsense now?
Explain yourself.
And like I asked, what happened if a resident refused to obey the order? People don't pack up and leave like that unless there's a threat to their lives. Not even Tudjman had the chutzpah to claim that the Serbs' own authorities forced them to leave (see link from previous post).
I don't care who said it - it's incorrect. Storm may have been the most concentrated if you consider refugee movement/time, but the top two contestants in the 'create a refugee nightmare' are Milosevic, for Kosovo '99 (800,000+), and Karadzic, for Bosnia '92-95 (over a million).
As for Kosovo, congratulations, you caught me. I should have said that Krajina was the largest ethnic cleansing operation up to that time since WWII. (Not that I'm conceding that Kosovo was an ethnic cleansing operation in the same sense that the Krajina was, since the KLA was in open revolt at the time, whereas the RSK had been observing a cease-fire with Croatia)
As for Bosnia, the three-year period you mention was not a single operation, and your mentioning this distracts from the point of this conversation, which is the effects of our support of Croatia's government. I'm not here to defend Milosevic's actions, or those of his allies. I'm here to point out the highly misguided nature of our own actions.
What are you saying here? Are people who fled Nationalist Serb control economic refugees or some other such nonsense now? Explain yourself.
Gladly. There was a war on in '91 - a real war, with two sides, not just one, as in Op Storm. Lots of unpleasant things happen in wars. People get caught in the crossfire, and yes, some soldiers and units lose control and take their aggressions out on civilians. Hence, wars tend to produce refugees in large numbers.
Ethnic cleansing, on the other hand, is a matter of deliberate policy. I'm no doubting that it went on in '91, but when there are two sides engaged in active combat, it's also not to be doubted that many refugees are simply fleeing the fighting. Hence, just quoting overall numbers of refugees from that time isn't going to prove anything about ethnic cleansing.
Milan Martic gave the order to flee, and they did.
As for fighting during Storm, I guess you missed the battle on the Dinara range behind Knin, and you missed the four day battle in the north.
You wanted to play stupid little reindeer games and didn't know that whereas the majority of Croatian refugees were driven out at gunpoint, the Serb refugees from Storm had a head start as their so called government threw in the towel and thus spared a great many the fate that befell about 400 of the few who chose to stay behind.
Ethnic cleansing, on the other hand, is a matter of deliberate policy. I'm no doubting that it went on in '91, but when there are two sides engaged in active combat, it's also not to be doubted that many refugees are simply fleeing the fighting.
Ethnic cleansing was the de facto Serb nationalist policy in areas that they controlled in all three Balkan wars, Inquest - the Serbs in Bosnia even continued ethnic cleansing operations after Dayton into 1996. You are simply too ignorant of the subject matter to intelligently engage in discourse - the Serbs used the JNA and its preponderance in heavy weaponry and armor to seize territory and then used paramilitaries to expel civilians. That they couldn't sustain the forces to keep those gains in later years, as in Croatia and Bosnia, speaks to the legitimacy of their goals as perceived by the Serbs themselves.
Not even Tudjman had the chutzpah to claim that the Serbs' own authorities forced them to leave
I thought 60 to 70 percent of the Serbs would stay, that they would understand that a democratic Croatia will guarantee their ethnic rights. So the Serbs themselves are to blame for their destiny. Franjo Tudjman
Do yourself a favor and don't make yourself look any more the fool - Milosevic and his Serbian Nationalism were the biggest problem in the Balkans in the 1990's, so it was the Serbs who were on the receiving end of our policies in the region - there was nothing misguided about it.
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