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Was Secession Treason?
Daveblack ^ | June 30, 2003 | DaveBlack

Posted on 07/01/2003 6:12:02 AM PDT by stainlessbanner

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1 posted on 07/01/2003 6:12:02 AM PDT by stainlessbanner
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To: Aurelius; Gianni; azhenfud; annyokie; SCDogPapa; thatdewd; canalabamian; Sparta; treesdream; ...
for discussion
2 posted on 07/01/2003 6:16:02 AM PDT by stainlessbanner
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To: Prof Engineer
history ping
3 posted on 07/01/2003 6:17:47 AM PDT by msdrby (I do believe the cheese slid off his cracker! - The Green Mile)
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To: stainlessbanner
Yes. It Was. And the Author convieniently leaves out the salient points of the DOI.

The Declaration of Independence of the Thirteen Colonies Presented by the Indiana University School of Law—Bloomington The Declaration of Independence of the Thirteen Colonies In CONGRESS, July 4, 1776 The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America, When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. --Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain [George III] is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.

He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.

He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.

He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.

He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected; whereby the Legislative powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.

He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.

He has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary powers.

He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone, for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.

He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people, and eat out their substance.

He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the consent of our legislatures.

He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil power.

He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation: For Quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:

For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States: For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world: For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

For depriving us, in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury:

For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences:

For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies:

For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws, and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:

For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.

He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.

He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.

He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty and perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.

He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.

He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury.
A Prince whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

Oh, yes, an P.S. it was under pain of Treason that the Founding Fathers pledged their "Lives, Fortunes, and "....(their)"Sacred Honor"....

The Winners write the History Books.....Sorry.

4 posted on 07/01/2003 6:28:31 AM PDT by hobbes1 ( Hobbes1TheOmniscient® "I know everything so you don't have to" ;)
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To: hobbes1
The Winners write the History Books.....Sorry.

The debate is not 'who wrote the history books', the debate is 'was secession treason'.

Also, just because battlefield winners write history books does not automatically make them the winners in the arena of logical debate.
5 posted on 07/01/2003 6:37:28 AM PDT by Arkinsaw
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To: stainlessbanner
Bump. IMHO, no.

The Southern States weren't trying to overthrow the Federal Government, they wanted to leave the Union.
6 posted on 07/01/2003 6:37:52 AM PDT by SAMWolf (My dad fought in World War II, it's one of the things that distinguishes him from the french.)
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To: stainlessbanner; wardaddy
...thanks Stainless!.... those who have opinions about secession will have a chance to participate first hand in due time.....wars of secession and partition are a global reality.....I expect they will come here too....

Good luck to all!

Stonewalls

7 posted on 07/01/2003 6:40:30 AM PDT by STONEWALLS
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To: hobbes1
I don't know about anyone else, but I fail to see how your quoting of the Declaration of Independence proves your view that Secession was treason.....

But even IF the DOI had a prohibition against succession by states (which I do not see), The DOI is not the document by which our country is oranized - that would be by the Constitution.
8 posted on 07/01/2003 6:42:16 AM PDT by TheBattman
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To: hobbes1
First, the DOI isn't the binding agrement to form a union.

Secon, read the article.
9 posted on 07/01/2003 6:44:53 AM PDT by PatrioticAmerican (If the only way an American can get elected is through Mexican votes, we have a war to be waged.)
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To: stainlessbanner
Stainless,
The Articles of Confederation of the United States also explain there is a joint agreement among the several sovereign states and that each reserve and retain all rights not specifically enumerated in the constitution, AND that no rights may be abridged without the consent of the United States Congress assembled....

Here is the introduction and first three articles:

"The Articles of Confederation


Nov. 15, 1777

To all to whom these Presents shall come, we the undersigned Delegates of the States affixed to our Names send greeting.
Articles of Confederation and perpetual Union between the states of New Hampshire, Massachusetts-bay Rhode Island and Providence Plantations, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina and Georgia.

I. The Stile of this Confederacy shall be "The United States of America".

II. Each state retains its sovereignty, freedom, and independence, and every power, jurisdiction, and right, which is not by this Confederation expressly delegated to the United States, in Congress assembled.

III. The said States hereby severally enter into a firm league of friendship with each other, for their common defense, the security of their liberties, and their mutual and general welfare, binding themselves to assist each other, against all force offered to, or attacks made upon them, or any of them, on account of religion, sovereignty, trade, or any other pretense whatever."

Treason is defined best depending upon which side of Liberty one stands.

Regards,
Az
10 posted on 07/01/2003 6:46:23 AM PDT by azhenfud
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To: PatrioticAmerican; TheBattman
I DID read the article.

The author sets up the DOI as justifying secession.

The Declaration of Independence was, in fact, a declaration of secession. Its final paragraph declares inarguably the ultimate sovereignty of each state:

If it's final paragraph is inarguable, then so is its content, declaring the Legitimate Reasons for such an endeavor.

Secondly, Secession, technically is in Violation of Several parts of the Constitution.

Article 1 Section 10, Clause 1: No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation;
Refresh my memory, what did the sesseionists call their "Country" ?

And all of Section 3.

Section. 3.

Clause 1: New States may be admitted by the Congress into this Union; but no new State shall be formed or erected within the Jurisdiction of any other State; nor any State be formed by the Junction of two or more States, or Parts of States, without the Consent of the Legislatures of the States concerned as well as of the Congress.

Clause 2: The Congress shall have Power to dispose of and make all needful Rules and Regulations respecting the Territory or other Property belonging to the United States; and nothing in this Constitution shall be so construed as to Prejudice any Claims of the United States, or of any particular State.

11 posted on 07/01/2003 6:56:25 AM PDT by hobbes1 ( Hobbes1TheOmniscient® "I know everything so you don't have to" ;)
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To: stainlessbanner
Not only do states have the constitional right to secede they have an obligation to secede from an opressive government which many feel is our present condition.
12 posted on 07/01/2003 7:06:07 AM PDT by sandydipper (Never quit - never surrender!)
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To: hobbes1
Well said. I have yet to hear any of these neo-confederates list the "train of abuses" as in the DOI.
13 posted on 07/01/2003 7:09:26 AM PDT by TheDon ( It is as difficult to provoke the United States as it is to survive its eventual and tardy response)
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To: hobbes1
Do you think England could have had similar proclaimations worded to discourage or prevent "insurrection" against the Royal Crown? Maybe we can find it, too....
14 posted on 07/01/2003 7:09:35 AM PDT by azhenfud
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To: azhenfud
I see you have a predeliction for the AoC, however, the States entered into a Union....They Did not like Democracy on a grander scale, and threatened to take their ball and go home, Violating the Agreement they entered.


15 posted on 07/01/2003 7:11:20 AM PDT by hobbes1 ( Hobbes1TheOmniscient® "I know everything so you don't have to" ;)
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To: TheDon
ROTFL...No, the only abuse they cite is the enormous spanking they took From Sherman,

But then....

On November 12, 1864, Sherman marched out of Atlanta toward the Atlantic coast. Tracing a line of march between Macon and Augusta, he carved a sixty-mile wide swath of destruction in the Confederacy's heartland.

That was AFTER THE FACT....

16 posted on 07/01/2003 7:17:19 AM PDT by hobbes1 ( Hobbes1TheOmniscient® "I know everything so you don't have to" ;)
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To: JohnGalt
*ping*
17 posted on 07/01/2003 7:19:28 AM PDT by sheltonmac
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To: stainlessbanner
Oh give me a break.

The South Lost.
History is written by the winners.
QED: Secession was treason.

The quality of the precedents and arguments on either side are meaningles.
They ceased to matter when the first shot was fired.
All that matters is that we (The South) lost.

Join back up with the real world.

So9

18 posted on 07/01/2003 7:25:28 AM PDT by Servant of the Nine (A Goldwater Republican)
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To: Servant of the Nine
I still think it matters; especially given the recent spur in constitutional discussions on FR threads around viable options for restoring our republic in the wake of two SCOTUS rulings.

In studying the past, we chart our course for the future.

19 posted on 07/01/2003 7:29:51 AM PDT by stainlessbanner
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To: sheltonmac
Reading the hysterical, lawyer like responses that attempt to disprove the essential premise: the Delcaration of Independence is a secessionist document, demonstrates that we are winning in the marketplace of ideas.

20 posted on 07/01/2003 7:30:49 AM PDT by JohnGalt (They're All Lying)
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