When you berate people who smoke tobacco and threaten them with the specter of dying because of it, you're saying that God doesn't decide the hour and manner of a person's death, that the person himself does. 
Posted on 09/15/2003 1:04:29 PM PDT by JesusSaves
Edited on 04/29/2004 2:03:07 AM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]
LONDON, England (Reuters) -- Smoking killed nearly five million people in 2000, accounting for almost equal numbers in the developed and developing nations and painting a bleak picture for the future, scientists have said.
(Excerpt) Read more at cnn.com ...
Between 2% and 10%, depending on which "study" you quote. A more important question, though, is at what age are lifetime smokers affected? 17% of them are older than 85, and nearly half are older than 75%--ages at which all types of cancer are more common since cancer is a disease of age.
When you berate people who smoke tobacco and threaten them with the specter of dying because of it, you're saying that God doesn't decide the hour and manner of a person's death, that the person himself does.
Now you're blowing smoke out your a$$.
Show me ANY post that I have said that smoking cannot be harmful and cannot shorten one's life.
You can't.
Again, for the dense, smoking can be a risk factor in some diseases and medical conditions. The only way smoke can kill you is, like in a house fire, you become asphyxiated, which is not going to happen smoking a cigarette.
You are attributing words to me that I have not said or intimated.
Good to see YOU too, Max!!! Since the death of my loved one, it's been a real roller coaster ride for me. Up and down. But I am a survivor, thank God, and like they say "Time Heals All Wounds." Just have to take one day at a time and keep busy! :)
Thank you. I appreciate that.
According to the Preacher you can.
Do not be overly wicked, Nor be foolish: Why should you die before your time?
Ecclesiastes 7:17
Myself, I don't believe any of the characters in the Bible, except possibley Jesus, knew the mind of God and the interelation of the reality created by Him beyond their part.
Of course, I may be just as presumptious as anybody else, but sovereignty of God in the matter of life and death rings true to my discernment. If it isn't then the only other alternative is that each person decides when he will die, therefore by extention he must be able to decide when he will live.
Not sure what "overly wicked" means. That's a most interesting phrase. How wicked can I be?
You don't believe that the Bible is the infallible Word of God?
Myself, I don't believe any of the characters in the Bible, except possibley Jesus, knew the mind of God and the interelation of the reality created by Him beyond their part.
As we only have the words of Jesus as recorded by others then in your eyes the whole thing is useless.
Which means that this discussion is pretty much pointless. However I am bored beyond belief tonight so why not?
Of course, I may be just as presumptious as anybody else, but sovereignty of God in the matter of life and death rings true to my discernment.
Life yes. Natural death yes. But then there are all those other deaths. Suicide. Murder. Abortion. Even Darwin Award winners. Can God intervene? Of course. Does He? Mostly no. It is all related to personal choices that we make and the natural outcome of those choices. I choose to walk off a 12 story building, it may not be my time to die. God may have other plans for me (and undoubtedly He does) but I am not a slave or robot with no free will. I choose to either follow God’s plan or not.
That is what makes the relationship between God and man so special. It is love freely given from God to man but also from man to God.
If it isn't then the only other alternative is that each person decides when he will die, therefore by extention he must be able to decide when he will live.
Not at all. God gives the gift of life to us.
God does not take back his gifts.
For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. Romans 11:29
However the use we make of those gifts, that is of our own choosing. Even up to discarding those gifts.
To say that someone’s untimely death was "God's Will" is to remove any personal responsibility from the killer.
That would make God extremely hypocritical for calling for judgment against the killer, as the killer was only a helpless pawn in His hand.
Not sure what "overly wicked" means. That's a most interesting phrase. How wicked can I be?
Not very. Judgement is sure.
Ecclesiastes 12:13-14 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God and keep His commandments, For this is man's all.
For God will bring every work into judgment, Including every secret thing, Whether good or evil.
Only if they're cremated.
As we only have the words of Jesus as recorded by others then in your eyes the whole thing is useless.
You posted a passage from Ecclesiastes where the son of David implys a man can "die before his time". This is the old testament, which is the history of the Israelite tribes and the prophets, leaders and Israelite laws. God did not say this nor write it, the Preacher did. I suspect he put it this way to impress his wisdom on the people who would not understand.
Life yes. Natural death yes. But then there are all those other deaths. Suicide. Murder. Abortion. Even Darwin Award winners. Can God intervene? Of course. Does He? Mostly no. It is all related to personal choices that we make and the natural outcome of those choices. I choose to walk off a 12 story building, it may not be my time to die. God may have other plans for me (and undoubtedly He does) but I am not a slave or robot with no free will. I choose to either follow God’s plan or not.
What is "natural" death? All death is caused by a physical event. Did God intervene in those who contemplate suicide and did not go through with it? I wouldn't use the word "mostly", because I wouldn't know every sparrow that falls. Do you know how many suicides that were called from the brink?
I believe that God turns the hearts of suicides. If you walk off a 12 story building and the Lord didn't turn you, it is your time to die. God created the world from the beginning of time to the end of time and knows every second of it. How can He not? He is God. I think it hubris to think any man can defeat any plan of God. He knows where all choices that we, in our limited perception of reality, lead or He is not a sovereign God.
The topic here is smoking. My mother died at 86. She smoked since she was 19. No cause of her death was related to smoking, and this according to her doctors. There are many who do not smoke, and don't live with a smoker, and die of lung cancer.
We simply have no knowledge of the cycle of cause and effect; we only know the surface events. You may choose to follow God's plan or not, from your limited viewpoint. But choices are not unlimited. We choose among those available. God is the source of choices available to us.
So I believe. The disagreement between free will and preordainment has been raging for centuries. I believe both. Time began and worked its way toward a purpose and that purpose has been fulfilled, and everything that happened was ordained. But, from within each segment of its passage, where our limited view resides, our choices seem to, and do, cause events, as God knows they did and would.
There is a box. We live in it, and it's hard to think outside of it. Your boredom is caused by your awareness of the limits of the box.
Your idea that God only gives us limited choices is also nowhere to be found. Do you have anything in scripture that would support this?
Your boredom is caused by your awareness of the limits of the box.
Quite right. My box is currently the four walls of my apartment. My boredom is caused by the fact that my foot is in a cast and I have been stuck in bed for past ten days and will be there for another four days while it finshes healing.
Anyone think the new fastfood menus will stop the government's focus on the franchise's killing people?
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