A Freeper Review of The Passion of Christ

Vanity | 2/21/04 | John Fields

[Ohioan from Florida]

Catholics believe that Mary was preserved from sin by God, ahead of time, from the beginning of time, because He knew the whole story: how Adam and Eve would fall, why it would be necessary to have a Savior, etc., etc. God knew the whole thing and so He had a plan, and Mary was part of that plan. We believe He preserved her from the stain of sin. She still needed a Savior, because she was human, but she didn't carry the stain of sin. God planned it that way. His way works. Why wouldn't He do this for the woman He chose to bring His son into the human world?

[Ohioan from Florida]

son = Son

[jonboy]

I'm not Catholic, obviously, nor is my faith a knee jerk or "protest" against the Catholic faith. That said, isn't it true that some Catholics believe Mary to be a Co-Redemptress and may even go so far as to want her included in the Godhead?

Dr. Miravalle’s Vox Populi Mariae Mediatrici movement has presented over five million signatures to the Holy See humbly requesting a solemn definition of the Marian titles Coredemptress, Mediatress or all graces and Advocate. A third of the cardinals and over a quarter of the Catholic episcopate have signed the petitions.

The present Holy Father since the beginning of his pontificate has, like his immediate predecessors in the See of Peter, often taught the doctrine of Marian coredemption, and is the first Pope since Pius XI to employ the title Coredemptress in public addresses, where he has used it at least six times.

Do a search on Google and type in Mary and Godhead and see what comes up. I'm not an expert on Catholic doctrine any more than they are an expert on mine. That said Jesus is my redeemer and advocate before the Father, I believe that Mary has no roll in that.

[Budge]

Please see my brief post (259) - I hope this is useful.

[jwalsh07]

Remember, no one is sinless but Christ.

Would it be outside of Gods powers to free a human being from original sin?

[Alamo-Girl]

Thanks for the ping!

[Leonine]

My dates are not at all fuzzy. They are correct. Immaculate Conception--Conception--Conception. The Assumption issue has already been addressed earlier in this thread. If you will read Pius' statement, you will see that, to him, Mary is the "Immaculate Mother of God." Being immaculate and ever-virgin, according to Catholic doctrine, what need has she of grace? Talk about fuzzy--look at your penultimate paragraph.

[Yaelle]

Thank you all for your explanations. I can't say that I perfectly understand but I certainly do better than I did before. I really appreciate all the responses.

[what's up]

If that happened it wouold make the Scriptures a lie as the Scriptures state that ALL have sinned.

The Scriptures are not a lie. All have sinned....this means Mary too.

[tekriter]

Catholic Answers has information about praying to the saints, including scripture references.

Because the Catholic faith is a comprehensive whole, it's difficult to explain single aspects since everything is intertwined. For example, we believe that a person who is in God's favor is alive in Christ after his physical body dies. They are still a part of the body of Christ. Death does not separate us from Jesus; He conquered death. Therefore when we ask the intercession of saints in heaven, we're not asking dead people to pray for us; we're asking people who more alive than we are (and with Jesus!)

We pray directly to God the Father, to Jesus, and to the Holy Spirit. However, throughout the New Testament, Paul asked the followers of Christ to pray for others(1 Timothy 2:1–4, Rom. 15:30–32, Eph. 6:18–20, Col. 4:3, 1 Thess. 5:25, 2 Thess. 3:1). Jesus, Himself, asked us to pray for our enemies (Matt. 5:44)! So, Christians ask others to pray for them. The saints in heaven are Christians; therefore, we ask the saints to pray for us.

[Ohioan from Florida]

Thank you for that link. It may prove helpful.

[what's up]

She still needed a Savior, because she was human, but she didn't carry the stain of sin.

In your world, what's she need to be saved from? Most people need to be saved from sin. What's her need?

Why wouldn't He do this for the woman He chose to bring His son into the human world?

Why should He? God can do anything, including bring a Savior into the world thru a human woman. God never contradicts His Word. His Word says all have sinned. It nowhere states that 2 people are sinless.

[Ohioan from Florida]

You stated that very well. And thanks for the reference to Catholic Answers. I need to use it more often.

[Leonine]

Why don't you just pray to God? All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. All saints are covered by the incorruptibility of Christ and so are you. Try this: pray to God from your heart and pray through a saint by memorized literature. During which prayer do you feel closer to the Lord?

[jwalsh07]

My dates are not at all fuzzy. They are correct.

No, they are incorrect. Your dates imply that these traditions were somehow dreamed up in the second half of the 20th Century.

That implication is fuzzy and does not give a true picture.

The Assumption issue has already been addressed earlier in this thread.

Yeah, you addressed it to me. I just replied. Next don't address me if you don't want an answer. Comprende'?

If you will read Pius' statement, you will see that, to him, Mary is the "Immaculate Mother of God."

Yeah, and....? Being immaculate and ever-virgin, according to Catholic doctrine, what need has she of grace?Your argument is with the Archangel Gabriel. I didn't declare Mary full of grace, Gabriel did. Perhaps you should address your question to Gabriel?

But being immaculate and ever-virgin does not equal being divine. In fact the terms "immaculate" and "full of grace" would seem to mean exactly the same thing, absent original sin.

Talk about fuzzy--look at your penultimate paragraph.

Is this ad hominem stuff because I can do ad hominem pretty good?

[Ohioan from Florida]

During which prayer do you feel closer to the Lord?

Do whatever you are more comfortable with, but don't forget that the Holy Spirit is the one who is doing the interpreting for us either way. Romans 8:26-27 "In the same way, the Spirit comes to the aid of our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we ought, but the Spirit itself intercedes with inexpressible groanings. And the one who searches hearts knows what is the intention of the Spirit, because it intercedes for the holy ones according to God's will." (NAB)

[jwalsh07]

From the 5th Century:


the Feast of the Assumption of Mary was celebrated in Syria;
The 5th and 6th Century:


the Apocryphal Books were testimony of a certain christian sense of the abhorency felt that the body of the Mother of God should lie in a sepulchre;
The 6th Century:


the Feast of the Assumption was celebrated in Jerusalem (and perhaps even in Alexandria);
From the 7th Century:


clear and explicit testimony was given on the Assumption of Mary in the Eastern Church; The same testimony is clear also in the Western Church (Gregory, Tours, 538-594);
In the 9th Century:


the Feast of the Assumption was celebrated in Spain;
From the 10th - 12th Century:


no dispute whatsoever in the Western Church; there was dispute over the false epistles of Jerome on the subject;
In the 12th Century:


the Feast of the Assumption was celebrated in the city of Rome, and in France;
From the 13th to present:


certain and undisputed faith in the Assumption of Mary in the universal Church;
1950, Pope Pius XII, declared infallibly, ex cathedra:


"Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul to heavenly glory."

[jwalsh07]

Church Fathers:


implicitly found in the Fathers of the Church in the parallelism between Eve and Mary (Irenaeus, Lyons, 140? - 202?);
Found in the more general terms about Mary: "holy", "innocent", "most pure", "intact", "immaculate" (Irenaeus, Lyons, 140?-202?; Ephraem, Syria, 306-373; Ambrose, Milan, 373-397);
Explicit language: Mary - free from original sin (Augustine, Hippo, 395-430 to Anselm, Normandy, 1033-1109);
Eastern Church:


celebrated a Feast of the Conception of Mary in the 8th to the 9th Century;
Western Church:


celebrated a Feast of the Conception of Mary in the 12th Century;
A record of the feast in the 11th Century in Great Britain; in the 12th Century in Normandy;
Record in many churches of a Feast of the Conception of Mary in France, Germany, Italy and Spain in the 12th Century (Bernard, Clairvaux, 1090-1153);
14th Century:


was noted for the opposition to the Immaculate Conception from some of the great doctors of scholasticism. The celebration of the feast was not denied though. The difficulty arose from the meaning of the universal redemption through Christ.
15th Century:


Franciscan theologians solved the difficulty--Christ, the most perfect mediator, preserved Mary from original sin by an equally perfect act of healing. Duns Scotus (Scotland, 1266-1308) explained that the Immaculate Conception came through God's application of the grace of Christ beforehand.
From 15th Century:


the Feast was universally celebrated; and christian piety introduced an oath to defend the belief in the Immaculate Conception to be taken not only by Religious, but also by non-Religious and at the Universities (e.g., Paris, 1497; Cologne, 1499; Vienna, 1501, etc.)
1854, Pope Pius IX, infallibly defined, ex cathedra:


"The Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instant of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of Almighty God, and in view of the foreseen merits of Jesus Christ, the savior of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin."

[nutmeg]

ping!

[Leonine]

My dates are not at all fuzzy. They are correct.

No, they are incorrect. Your dates imply that these traditions were somehow dreamed up in the second half of the 20th Century.
That implication is fuzzy and does not give a true picture.

My dates are correct. If you're looking for hidden implications, they are not there. The point is that it took many centuries before the Vatican accepted these folk traditions.