A Freeper Review of The Passion of Christ

The Assumption issue has already been addressed earlier in this thread.

Yeah, you addressed it to me. I just replied. Next don't address me if you don't want an answer. Comprende'?

No, the issue was addressed in a discussion with sandyeggo. Did you come in late on this thread?

281 posted on 02/21/2004 10:22:59 PM PST by Leonine

To: savedbygrace

The Hail Mary is a prayer to Mary

Against my better judgement, I am weighing in on this one....

The Hail Mary is not a prayer TO Mary, it is a prayer FOR her intercession with God our Faither and her Son, Jesus. Because you are obviously unfamiliar with the Hail Mary, I will fill you in on the pertinent part...

Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death, Amen.

If we really pray TO the Virgin Mary (or any of the Saints for that matter) we would ask HER to forgive our sins and we most certainly do not do so.

As others have pointed out, if you ask other people to pray for your intentions, then you are doing nothing different than Catholics do when we pray for the intercession of the Angels and Saints. Of course, if you don't believe in Heaven, then I guess you wouldn't get it, but then you wouldn't be a Christian then, would you.

Why don't you just agree to disagree with Catholics and leave it at that ? Thanks! GG

282 posted on 02/21/2004 10:23:20 PM PST by MiniCooperChick

Being immaculate and ever-virgin, according to Catholic doctrine, what need has she of grace?//Your argument is with the Archangel Gabriel. I didn't declare Mary full of grace, Gabriel did. Perhaps you should address your question to Gabriel?
Gabriel has refuted you. Again I say, "Being immaculate and ever-virgin, according to Catholic doctrine, what need has she of grace?"

283 posted on 02/21/2004 10:27:10 PM PST by Leonine

To: 2ndMostConservativeBrdMember; afraidfortherepublic; Alas; al_c; american colleen; annalex; ...

284 posted on 02/21/2004 10:27:53 PM PST by Coleus (Help Tyler Schicke http://tylerfund.org/ Burkitt's leukemia)

To: padfoot_lover

I didn't post what I did to start an argument, however, since I am being pressed by a number of my Catholic friends, there are some items to indicate to non-Catholics that she is considered by Catholics to be divine (if not in word, in practice):

The Cathedral of Chartres symbolizes the Church. It contains many physical features that make it unique from any other structure. Chartes is hand built and took many years to construct. Chartres, like many other Cathedrals, is full of stained glass windows. These windows serve a huge purpose. On just about every window in Chartres, a story is told. For example, the Blue Virgin Mary is a very famous window that symbolizes the divinity of Mary for giving birth to Christ. Another reason for having so many windows is to allow light in to "illuminate" the Cathedral.

JOHN PAUL II
GENERAL AUDIENCE
Wednesday 9 April 1997
Dear Brothers and Sisters, Continuing our catechesis on the Blessed Virgin Mary, we are considering her cooperation in the redemptive sacrifice of Christ. All Christians are called to cooperate with God as his fellow-workers (cf. 1 Cor 3:9) in spreading the fruits of the Redemption accomplished on Calvary. But the Second Vatican Council reminds us that Mary's cooperation with Christ, unlike that of other Christians, remains "completely unique" (Lumen Gentium, 61), since it forms a part of the very events by which her Son achieved our salvation.

The basis of this unique cooperation is Mary's divine motherhood and her sharing in Jesus' life, culminating in her presence at the foot of the Cross. In God's plan, Mary is the "woman" (cf. Jn 2:4; 19:26), the New Eve, united to the New Adam in restoring humanity to its original dignity. Her cooperation with her Son continues for all time in the universal motherhood which she enjoys in the order of grace. Trusting in this maternal cooperation, let us turn to Mary, imploring her help in all our needs.

Let's see, the Pope said she's the New Eve. Jesus was the New Adam bringing life where Adam brought death. So what does the New Eve supposedly bring? He said that she was a divine mother. He said that we should turn to her for all of our needs. By my understanding of scripture, these are all things that I personally only ascribe to God and His Son. Again, it was not my intent to have an argument, but there seems to be ample evidence that Mary is treated as divinity even if she is not called divine.

285 posted on 02/21/2004 10:29:16 PM PST by jonboy

Talk about fuzzy--look at your penultimate paragraph.
Is this ad hominem stuff because I can do ad hominem pretty good?

Neither of us is speaking ad hominem. You stated that I was being fuzzy, a term referring to logic.

286 posted on 02/21/2004 10:30:55 PM PST by Leonine

To: padfoot_lover

"Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death.

I'm sorry, but if that isn't the description of a "goddess" and thus divine by definition, I don't know what is.

287 posted on 02/21/2004 10:37:10 PM PST by jonboy

I see that as an opportunity for education and discussion, not for pulling the thread.

Yes of course. I wasn't suggesting that the thread be pulled.

288 posted on 02/21/2004 10:39:24 PM PST by beckett

The grace Mary received was before her natural conception. She was going to need the grace, because she was going to be a human. God knew that all the humans were going to need grace, His grace, to be able to be near Him. He knew this ahead of time and so He gave Mary His grace before she was naturally conceived.

Gabriel has not refuted that. He said to Mary, in Luke 1:28, "Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you." Present tense. Mary had the fullness of grace according to Gabriel, God's messenger.

289 posted on 02/21/2004 10:42:25 PM PST by Ohioan from Florida (The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.- Edmund Burke)

Wow, jonboy--powerful quotes. I didn't know John Paul himself felt this way about the "divinity of Mary." It seems that I recall that a Co-Redemptrix movement is afoot amongst the Jesuits but JPII stopped short of declaring Marian divinity. Apparently this is not the case!

290 posted on 02/21/2004 10:43:17 PM PST by Leonine

To: Ohioan from Florida

Sorry I cannot continue. My wife is home and .... Since I don't have a phone, I will not be back for many days. May God bless you, brother!

291 posted on 02/21/2004 10:48:54 PM PST by Leonine

The Scriptures are not a lie. All have sinned....this means Mary too.

Were Adam and Eve born without sin? Did all the angels sin? None were divine.

But I'm not trying to convince or convert, just to enlighten on Catholicism from what little I know of it.

292 posted on 02/21/2004 10:49:44 PM PST by jwalsh07

You stated that I was being fuzzy, a term referring to logic.

That was the spirit. God bless.

293 posted on 02/21/2004 10:51:42 PM PST by jwalsh07

To: BlessedAmerican

It shows the stone being rolled away from the perspective of the inside of the tomb. Inside, the sunlight reveals the Christ filled shroud, which starts going flat. Then after it is completely flat the camera pans to the foot of the shroud where it shows Jesus standing, whole and unscarred except for the wounds in His hands and side. None are left guessing. Also, there are flashbacks in Jesus' and other's memories to His earlier ministry which help fill in some blanks.

294 posted on 02/21/2004 10:54:03 PM PST by jonboy

I respect the tradition of honor which has made FreeRepublic one of the most respected sites in the world. I am not questioning your source. It is obvious to me that you could not in a few seconds have dreamed up this quote. My Catholic wife, however, would like a link to this.

295 posted on 02/21/2004 10:55:43 PM PST by Leonine

Mary's divine motherhood

This means Mary's motherhood is divine in nature, not Mary personally. It was a divine gift. It was freely offered, and Mary accepted this divine gift, although she probably thought she was undeserving of it. Otherwise, she wouldn't have been puzzled at Gabriel's announcement. In many places, when Mary is referred to, it says that she pondered the things that were going on and kept them in her heart. Mary cooperated fully with God's will.

I cannot believe that there are so many who want to say that Catholics think that Mary is divine in her nature. She is not God, and Catholics do NOT believe that she is God! You are misunderstanding our beliefs! Perhaps it is difficult to understand, and it is definitely difficult to explain.

296 posted on 02/21/2004 10:55:58 PM PST by Ohioan from Florida (The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.- Edmund Burke)

To: captain_dave

I was surprised. The language was beautiful and sounded completely natural. Also, the sub-titles, which I thought would be a big drag and hard to follow were not distracting AT ALL.

297 posted on 02/21/2004 10:57:40 PM PST by jonboy

You're very welcome. Good luck in your search for the truth.

298 posted on 02/21/2004 10:58:43 PM PST by CyberAnt (The 2004 Election is for the SOUL of AMERICA)

Mary's divine motherhood

Let me translate this for you.

Mary is the Mother of God, the Lord Jesus Christ.

299 posted on 02/21/2004 10:58:53 PM PST by jwalsh07

Thank you for your excellent comments !

300 posted on 02/21/2004 11:01:56 PM PST by Edgewood Pilot

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