Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Una Voce International President Gives Report of His Visit to Rome
Seattle Catholic ^ | 3/26/2004 | Ralf Siebenbürger

Posted on 03/26/2004 11:07:57 AM PST by CatherineSiena

click here to read article


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-2021-34 next last

1 posted on 03/26/2004 11:07:57 AM PST by CatherineSiena
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: CatherineSiena
The Cardinal underlined that Archbishop Lefebvre had never founded a proper structure of his fraternity that could be considered as a concrete act of schism.

Who is this Cardinal? I read the article and it is unclear (not that this will make an ounce of difference to the SSPX haters).

2 posted on 03/26/2004 11:25:13 AM PST by Canticle_of_Deborah
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Land of the Irish; ultima ratio; Maximilian; Dajjal; Tantumergo; nickcarraway; Siobhan; Pyro7480
According to Msgr Perl, these Officials are afraid of protests from the local bishops and bishops' conferences.

Ping!

3 posted on 03/26/2004 11:27:58 AM PST by Canticle_of_Deborah
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: BlackElk
The Cardinal underlined that Archbishop Lefebvre had never founded a proper structure of his fraternity that could be considered as a concrete act of schism.
4 posted on 03/26/2004 11:29:36 AM PST by Canticle_of_Deborah
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: Canticle_of_Deborah
"Who is this Cardinal?"

I think it's Cardinal Hoyos.

VATICAN (CWNews.com) -- Pope John Paul II has named Cardinal Dario Castrillon Hoyos, the prefect of the Congregation for the Clergy, to head the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei.

5 posted on 03/26/2004 11:32:19 AM PST by Land of the Irish
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Canticle_of_Deborah
Who is this Cardinal? I read the article and it is unclear.

The translation and phrasing of it are a bit awkward, but this refers to Hoyos: "His Eminence the Cardinal President of the ED Commission"

6 posted on 03/26/2004 11:33:31 AM PST by CatherineSiena
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: CatherineSiena; sandyeggo; american colleen
"There is only one Roman Rite", underlined the Cardinal verbally, "and this Roman Rite has different forms." So, according to him, the Ancient Rite is not a rite in its own right, but the Ancient Rite and the Novus Ordo are two forms of one and the same rite.

The Cardinal is pointing out that the Roman Rite has 3 forms - the Novus Ordo, the 1962 Missal and the Anglican-Use. From the EWTN library:

RITES

A Rite represents an ecclesiastical, or church, tradition about how the sacraments are to be celebrated. Each of the sacraments has at its core an essential nature which must be satisfied for the sacrament to be confected or realized. This essence - of matter, form and intention - derives from the divinely revealed nature of the particular sacrament. It cannot be changed by the Church. Scripture and Sacred Tradition, as interpreted by the Magisterium, tells us what is essential in each of the sacraments (2 Thes. 2:15). 

When the apostles brought the Gospel to the major cultural centers of their day the essential elements of religious practice were inculturated into those cultures. This means that the essential elements were clothed in the symbols and trappings of the particular people, so that the rituals conveyed the desired spiritual meaning to that culture. In this way the Church becomes all things to all men that some might be saved (1 Cor. 9:22).

There are three major groupings of Rites based on this initial transmission of the faith, the Roman, the Antiochian (Syria) and the Alexandrian (Egypt). Later on the Byzantine derived as a major Rite from the Antiochian, under the influence of St. Basil and St. John Chrysostom. From these four derive the over 20 liturgical Rites present in the Church today.

Western Rites and Churches
Immediately subject to the Supreme Pontiff as Patriarch of the West


ROMAN
(also called Latin)
The Church of Rome is the Primatial See of the world and the Patriarchal See of Western Christianity. Founded by St. Peter in 42 AD it was consecrated by the blood of Sts. Peter and Paul during the persecution of Nero (63-67 AD). It has maintained a continual existence since then and is the source of a family of Rites in the West. Considerable scholarship (such as that of Fr. Louis Boyer in Eucharist) suggests the close affinity of the Roman Rite proper with the Jewish prayers of the synagogue, which also accompanied the Temple sacrifices. While the origin of the current Rite, even in the reform of Vatican II, can be traced directly only to the 4th century, these connections point to an ancient apostolic tradition brought to that city that was decidedly Jewish in origin.

After the Council of Trent it was necessary to consolidate liturgical doctrine and practice in the face of the Reformation. Thus, Pope St. Pius V imposed the Rite of Rome on the Latin Church (that subject to him in his capacity as Patriarch of the West), allowing only smaller Western Rites with hundreds of years of history to remain. Younger Rites of particular dioceses or regions ceased to exist.

• Roman - The overwhelming majority of Latin Catholics and of Catholics in general. Patriarch of this and the other Roman Rites is the Bishop of Rome. The current Roman Rite is that of the 1969 Missale Romanum, to be published in a third edition in 2001.
- Missal of 1962 (Tridentine Mass) - Some institutes within the Roman Rite, such as the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter, have the faculty to celebrate the sacramental rites according to the forms in use prior to the Second Vatican Council. This faculty can also be obtained by individual priests from their bishop or from the Pontifical Council Ecclesia Dei
- Anglican Use - Since the 1980s the Holy See has granted some former Anglican and Episcopal clergy converting with their parishes the faculty of celebrating the sacramental rites according to Anglican forms, doctrinally corrected.
• Mozarabic - The Rite of the Iberian peninsula (Spain and Portugal) known from at least the 6th century, but probably with roots to the original evangelization. Beginning in the 11th century it was generally replaced by the Roman Rite, although it has remained the Rite of the Cathedral of the Archdiocese of Toledo, Spain, and six parishes which sought permission to adhere to it. Its celebration today is generally semi-private.
• Ambrosian - The Rite of the Archdiocese of Milan, Italy, thought to be of early origin and probably consolidated, but not originated, by St. Ambrose. Pope Paul VI was from this Roman Rite. It continues to be celebrated in Milan, though not by all parishes.
• Bragan - Rite of the Archdiocese of Braga, the Primatial See of Portugal, it derives from the 12th century or earlier. It continues to be of occasional use.
• Dominican - Rite of the Order of Friars Preacher (OP), founded by St. Dominic in 1215.
• Carmelite - Rite of the Order of Carmel, whose modern foundation was by St. Berthold c.1154.
• Carthusian - Rite of the Carthusian Order founded by St. Bruno in 1084. 

7 posted on 03/26/2004 11:38:24 AM PST by NYer (Prayer is the Strength of the Weak)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: CatherineSiena
"There is only one Roman Rite", underlined the Cardinal verbally, "and this Roman Rite has different forms." So, according to him, the Ancient Rite is not a rite in its own right, but the Ancient Rite and the Novus Ordo are two forms of one and the same rite.

The Cardinal took this as an occasion to tell the reason why there are such enormous restrictions for the celebration of the Ancient Rite at St Peter's Basilica: St Peter's basilica is the very heart of the Church, he explained to us, and for that, there shall only one rite be celebrated in this basilica, and this is the rite that is celebrated everywhere in the Universal Church. And that is the Novus Ordo. (These words seem to be somehow a self-contradiction to the Cardinal's own words according to which both, the Nous Ordo and the Ancient Rite, were not two different rites, but one and the same rite.

Am I confused or is the person who said these things confused?

8 posted on 03/26/2004 1:23:28 PM PST by johnb2004
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Canticle_of_Deborah
SSPX not "officially" in schism? I am shocked! ;-)
9 posted on 03/26/2004 1:26:21 PM PST by Pyro7480 (Minister for the Conversion of Hardened Sinners,Tomas de Torquemada Gentlemen's Club)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: johnb2004
Am I confused or is the person who said these things confused?

I thought this was amusing as well. When it comes to denying adherents to the Tridentine Rite certain inherent structures and assurances, it is claimed not to be a separate Rite worthy of such measures, but when it comes to restricting its use, the claim is made that it is not the Roman Rite and cannot be seen as such.

Obviously the words spoken by "these Officials" are political doublespeak, showing little internal consistency.

10 posted on 03/26/2004 1:37:58 PM PST by CatherineSiena
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: CatherineSiena
Politics is right. There is more concern over politics than immortal souls.
11 posted on 03/26/2004 1:39:14 PM PST by johnb2004
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: Canticle_of_Deborah
At first, I visited Msgr Perl in the ED Commission. He told me - and Card. Castrillon Hoyos afterwards repeated it - that the Holy See authorities have dropped any plan to create a proper jurisdiction for faithful who prefer the Ancient Rite (i.e. Apostolic Administration or something similar). According to Msgr Perl, these Officials are afraid of protests from the local bishops and bishops' conferences.

The frustrating part of all this is that it continues the contradictory message from the Vatican which quite clearly rewards disobedience and separating oneself from the Novus Ordo bishops. The SSJV in Campos and the SSPX were both offered generous arrangements - apostolic administrations. The SSJV accepted theirs, and Fellay compared his offer to a "Rolls Royce". Yet, those who have strived to work within the Church structures and Ecclesia Dei indult are continually denied the same structures and guarantees.

It's no wonder the SSPX is skeptical. Obedient traditionalists trying to avoid schism are continually kicked in the teeth by their bishops, and when they appeal to Rome for help, the ecclesial bureaucrats there claim there is nothing they can do, and that they can't dare risk "protests from the local bishops and bishops' conferences." Is it no wonder the SSPX doesn't trust the deal they're offered, or how they will be treated once they reach an agreement?

All that will come of this is another document or announcement that accomplishes little to nothing. Bishops will be encouraged to "respect" the Latin Mass and those "attached" to it - perhaps in the name of "respecting diversity", but nothing will change. Traditionalists will still be subject to the manipulation of the enemies of the Church, and Rome has decided for political reasons to abandon the one tanglible action it could take to keep the likes of Cardinal Mahony from completely stamping out the Faith in those under his rule.

The final message from Rome? Take us up on our Ecclesia Dei indult offer and prepare to be resigned to the catacombs as a second-class citizen in the Church for the foreseeable future. But break off and ignore the jurisdiction of the bishops we're so afraid to offend, then we'll offer you the moon. Depressing.

12 posted on 03/26/2004 1:55:07 PM PST by CatherineSiena
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: CatherineSiena; Land of the Irish; ultima ratio; narses
My weekly donation to my indult parish just dropped to $1. A protest donation. If I'm relegated to the back of the bus for the foreseeable future let the bus run on someone else's money. If I had an accessible SSPX chapel, I'd be there in a minute.
13 posted on 03/26/2004 3:48:15 PM PST by sydney smith
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: Canticle_of_Deborah
According to Msgr Perl, these Officials are afraid of protests from the local bishops and bishops' conferences.

So the bishops are now dictating to the Pope. Let him write his poetry and books, new mysteries of the Rosary, etc. We must not have "Mutiny on the Bounty Barque". Discipline or excommunicate any traditionalists, because they are in the minority. It's the politically correct think to do. Let the heretics have their way, for they are in the majority. JP II wants to be a beloved, people's Pope.

Pope St. Pius X strived to be God's Pope, to heck with the secular world.

14 posted on 03/26/2004 3:53:45 PM PST by Land of the Irish
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: Canticle_of_Deborah
(not that this will make an ounce of difference to the SSPX haters)

"SSPX haters": Like the mini-popes on this forum who have declared more Catholics excommunicated than John Paul II has?

15 posted on 03/26/2004 4:01:41 PM PST by Land of the Irish
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Land of the Irish
one and the same!
16 posted on 03/26/2004 4:12:09 PM PST by Canticle_of_Deborah
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: CatherineSiena
His Eminence the Cardinal Prefect was not allowed to see me. My purpose there had to do with a local Austrian problem that the UV Austria had asekd me to bring to the Congregation of the Faith and which has no significance for the FIUV. I succeeded to present it to a person of the Cardinal's personal staff.

What is that all about? Cardinal Ratzinger wasn't "allowed" to see this guy? Is that a bad translation or just plain weird?

17 posted on 03/26/2004 4:17:38 PM PST by american colleen
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: sydney smith
My weekly donation to my indult parish just dropped to $1.

Auto-destruction.

18 posted on 03/26/2004 4:18:37 PM PST by american colleen
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: american colleen
Why is it auto-destruction? The bishops just use the money to further their causes, mostly political leftist. Either that or pay settlement money to abuse victims without addressing the issue of homosexual priests. The only thing most of them care about is money, my diocesan bishop included. This is the only language they understand.
19 posted on 03/26/2004 4:25:23 PM PST by Canticle_of_Deborah
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: Canticle_of_Deborah
Unfortunately, the bishops also have the power to allow or forbid an indult. With the money thing, you are caught between a rock and a hard place.

I can only speak of my own diocese, but some of the most modernist parishes have the largest amounts of money donated by the laity. They are allowed to go on as is.

20 posted on 03/26/2004 4:35:34 PM PST by american colleen
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-2021-34 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson