THE CHURCH MILITANT--REAL MILITANT--The Knights of St. John & the Siege of Malta

Catholic Men's Quarterly ^ | March 2004 | Nicholas C. Prata

[Destro]

The Roman Empire whose capital was in Constantinople kept Islam back from Europe not the Crusades which weakened the Christian Empire. Greek Fire in a much earlier fight is the reason we don't speak Arabic. The Crusades were fought against an Islam ruled by Turkic and Kurdish tribes.

Greek fire spewing forth from Constantinople's navy kept the Arabs out of Europe.

[broadsword]

Oh, come on, Destro. That's just silly in its one-sided ignorance of history and uncharitable in its cold dismissal of the blood spent by the three great military orders of the Church.

I know the history of these orders like the back of my hand as it is a major study of mine. But I feel less than inclined to even begin presenting facts for you after that crass post.

Look, my brother, I love you and have always found your posts on the FR a friendly bastion of defense of our cmmon faith. I have considered you a brother-in-arms, but this matter seems a subject not broachable.

I had a Russian friend for several years, who insisted that Russia single-handedly won WWII and provided the USA with food and material for our salvation during that struggle. When something is THAT 180 degrees off and utterly contrary to the truth, what can be said?

Your post strikes me that way. I am sorry about that.

[wildandcrazyrussian]

You are right!

here is what I posted on another thread:

**********

I believe that there is a time for righteous anger when civilization itself is under mortal threat. After all, the Orthodox Roman Empire of Constantinople did not fall the first time it was attacked by Islamic forces in 717-718 AD, but beat them back with the aid of "Greek fire" and the Bulgars, and lasted another 735 years (until 1453 AD). The Islamic armies in 717 numbered 80,000 with tens of thousands more men on the 1,800 ships. Had the siege been successful, the entire course of human history would have changed for the worse. The battle of Poiters in 732 (just 14 years later!), when Christian forces defeated the Muslims in France, would have gone the other way with the arrival of hundreds of thousands of additional troops fresh from sacking and pillaging Eastern Europe and trying to destroy Christian civilization there. How long could the Germanic, Celtic, and Scandinavian areas have held out against emboldened Islamic warriors convinced even more that their deity was all-powerful?

Then, 250 years later, a future Prince Vladimir would never been able to send envoys to a Christian Constantinople and be impressed by heaven on earth in the Hagia Sophia... there might never have been a Christian Russia, and ALL of Europe might have been Islamicized just like the previously-Christian civilizations of northern Africa, the previously-Christian and Buddhist lands of central Asia, the previously-Jewish areas of Saudi Arabia, and on and on… So in fact there is nothing the least bit wrong with defending unto death the Christian civilization which is the only hope of the world, and why the Western world should be thankful to the Orthodox populations of Constantinople and the Balkans who absorbed the force of the Islamic invasions and kept the West safe, rather than being crudely dismissive of them.

[presidio9]

If they truly were a failure, you and I would likely be speaking Arabic right now.

If the Crusades had failed, the most prevalant features of this planet would be cockroaches and radio active clouds. The only people Muslims hate more than Jews and Christians are Muslims of differing viewpoints.

[Claud]

21st century crusade BUMP!

[Antoninus]

The Roman Empire whose capital was in Constantinople kept Islam back from Europe not the Crusades which weakened the Christian Empire.

Hey, I've never had a problem giving the Greeks their due, particularly in the early days when they were basically alone in the fight against crusading Islam. Of course, the Eastern Empire might have lasted longer if not for the useless (in hindsight) offensives of Justinian and Heraclius and if not for the endless civil wars among rival eastern emperors.

But you have to admit--after Manzikert, Byzantium might not have made it out of the 12th century without the Crusaders taking some of the pressure off.

Greek Fire in a much earlier fight is the reason we don't speak Arabic. The Crusades were fought against an Islam ruled by Turkic and Kurdish tribes.

I know that. I was just being "colorful"...

[Antoninus]

....why the Western world should be thankful to the Orthodox populations of Constantinople and the Balkans who absorbed the force of the Islamic invasions and kept the West safe, rather than being crudely dismissive of them.

I'm not crudely dismissive of anything. I have studied the history of Byzantium and am fascinated by it and I appreciate the efforts made by the East in repelling Islam during the 7th - 15th centuries. I think it was a tragedy that Constantinople was ever taken by the Turks.

Honestly, I think some of my Orthdox brethren have some sort of bitter inferiority complex when it comes to history that forces them to try to aggrandize their own ancestors by denigrating everyone else's. Really, we're all on the same side, here. What's the point of fighting each other any more?

[wildandcrazyrussian]

ACtually, that is precisely the point I myself was making. It is not in the slightest an "inferiority complex" to complain about Western Europeans and especially Americans denigrating the contributions of the Eastern Roman Empire (if they are even the least bit aware of them). WE are not the ones who denigrate Western society and consider it laughable, but that is the treatment dished out by the West. Or are you unaware the word "byzantine" is used as an insult, as when talking about politics? When is the last titme you personally tried to set the record straight to get others to use a different word and teach others about the existence and glory of the Christian civilization of Byzantium, which made it possible for your ancestors to even be Christian? I always thought that it was (some) Westerners who have an inferiority complex which makes them feel better only by insulting others.

Overall, we appreciate those who laid their life on the line, as in the original article posted above. Let's see more of that joint effort in the future!

[stop_fascism]

You're so right. The crusades were a defensive war, which stopped Islam from spreading into Europe and made possible the reconquista in Spain.

Similarly, today, we are attacking radical Islam in Iraq and Afganistan rather than waiting around for future terror attacks, and building up Fire departments to clean up the mess.

[patent]

bump.

[Antoninus]

Or are you unaware the word "byzantine" is used as an insult, as when talking about politics?

Duh. It's also the term of choice for academics studying the medieval Eastern Roman Empire. Somebody should tell the folks at Dumbarton Oaks that their Byzantine Studies library is an insult.

When is the last titme you personally tried to set the record straight to get others to use a different word and teach others about the existence and glory of the Christian civilization of Byzantium, which made it possible for your ancestors to even be Christian?

Never. I'm not a politically-correct nincompoop who thinks that guilting people into using different terminology actually accomplishes anything.

Furthermore, the Byzantine Greeks weren't terribly kind to my ancestors on the Italian peninsula. And yet a person with my surname was among the Genoese defending Constantinople in 1453. Go figure.

[Destro]

All I said is that the Crusades were focused on the Turkish (mostly) ruled world of Islam. The Arabs were subjects of the Turks - Mulsims they all were regardless. So that is why I said the Crusades did not keep Europe from speaking Arabic.

[Antoninus]

All I said is that the Crusades were focused on the Turkish (mostly) ruled world of Islam. The Arabs were subjects of the Turks - Mulsims they all were regardless. So that is why I said the Crusades did not keep Europe from speaking Arabic.

Right. They kept Europe from speaking Arabic and Turkish.

[CitadelArmyJag]

The best books available about the Siege of 1565 are "The Great Siege" by Ernle Bradford and a firsthand account by one of the Spanish Arquebusquers sent by Phillip II named Francisco Balbi. I highly recommend both of those books to anybody interested in the subject.

Also, to anybody who is interested in the siege who has never visited the island, many of the original fortresses of Malta remain on the island. It is an AMAZING spot to spend several days for anybody interested in this period of history.

[Cacique]

bookmark bump

[Antoninus]

Ping. Forgot about this one.

[marshmallow]

I was just taking a stroll down memory lane, looking at the names of posters on this thread. Many of them I'd forgotten about. Amongst them, some excellent Catholic apologists who've sadly drifted away and also a number of others who managed to get themselves tossed out and banned.

Freepers come and Freepers go, I guess..........

[Antoninus]

And some of us just stick around forever and ever....