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Catholic Confusion at the Very Top (Part II)
New Oxford Review | March 2004 | David Palm

Posted on 04/01/2004 8:01:29 PM PST by Pyro7480

(Reprinted with permission from NEW OXFORD REVIEW, 1069 Kains Ave., Berkeley, CA 94706, U.S.A.)

(Part I here)

No Souls in Hell?

One of the most pernicious errors that plagues the Catholic Church today is creeping universalism. While few will come out and baldly state that no one is damned to hell, the door is left open to that conclusion by writers such as Hans Urs von Balthasar in his book Dare We Hope "That All Men Be Saved?". We have seen this played out in the pages of the NEW OXFORD REVIEW (Jan. 2001, July.-Aug. 2001, Oct. 2001), as the universalist tendencies of Fr. Richard John Neuhaus have come under scrutiny. And I have encountered any number of relatively prominent Catholic apologists who argue vociferously (although privately) in favor of the veiw that we cannot know for certain, based on Scripture and Tradition, that there are any human souls in Hell.

One finds, unfortunately, that support for this new-fangled notion be found at the very top of the Church's hierarchy. In a general audience of July 28, 1999, the Holy Fater stunned many faithful Catholics when he stated that: "Eternal damnation remains a real possibility, but we are not granted, without special divine revelation, the knowledge of whether or which human beings are effectively involved in it" (emphasis mine). This appears in the official version of the Pope's talks, Insegnamenti di Giovanni Paolo II, but without the doctrinally diffucult wording "whether" (se e in Italian). Presumably someone in the Vatican noticed that the words, as they were actually spoken, were problematic and intervened to make sure the official version conforms unambiguously to Chuch teaching. Still, it is the publicly spoken version that has received so much attention. Thus the Holy Father's spoken words appear to deny that the sources of public revelation (i.e., Scripture and Tradition) are sufficient to tell us whether any human souls at all are damned. And yet our Lord says quite plainly that many will fail to attain eternal salvation: "Enter through the narrow gate; for the fate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it" (Mt. 7:13-14; emphasis mine; also see: Mt. 13: 24-30, 36-51; 22:1-14; 25:14; Lk. 10:13-15; 13:23-24; Jude 7). And the entire Catholic Tradition has affirmed that we can indeed be certain that there are human souls damned, although we cannot know specifically which individuals are so affected. Numerous magisterial texts leave no room for a Hell empty of human souls. I will quote but two: "And so Our Predecessor, Benedict XIV, had just cause to write: "We declare that a great number of those who are condemned to eternal punishment suffer that everlasting calamity because of ignorance of those mysteries of faith which must be known and believed in order to numbered among the elect'" (Pope Pius X, Acerbo Nimis #3, citing Benedict XIV, Instit., 27:18). (What is being referred to here is vincible ignorance, not invincible ignorance.) Also, the current Catechism states regarding Christ's descent into Hell on Holy Saturday: "Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, 'hell' - Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek - because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God. Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the redeemer; which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus showes through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into 'Abraham's bosom'.... Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him" (#633). This clearly indicates that there are human souls in Hell who will never escape.

Creeping univeralism has very troubling practical results. Most notably, it dampens missionary zeal and Catholic evangelism. The driving motive behind all the great missionary efforts in the history of the Catholic Church has been the understanding that, without Christ and His Church, human beings are in varying degrees in a disadvantageous situation regarding their salvation. The imperative to go and preach the Gospel, even in the face of torture and death, has been driven by the conviction that multitudes are in danger of eternal damnation if they are not reached. But if everybody will be saved or if Catholics may entertain true doubts whether anybody at all will end up in Hell, then a key motivation for missionary work and Catholic evangelism is subverted.

Collegiality & Lack of Ecclesiastical Discipline

Agnosticism about the reality of human damnation also stands in large measure behind the collapse of ecclesiastical discipline that plagues the Catholic Church. If a shepherd in the Church truly belived that the souls under his care are in jeopardy of hellfire on account of heresy, sacrilege, and mortal sin (as is taught by innumerable Fathers, Doctors, and popes) then he would act decisively to suppress these things and punish the individuals responsible for spreading them, even to the point of exclusing them from the body of the Church. This is what the entire tradition of the Church (and even her present canon law [see canon 915]) tells him to do.

Could it be that our Holy Father does not exercise his disciplinary authority because he is not convinced that we can know whether there is anyone in Hell? Is it not possible that certains theological conclusions and practical outcomes logically go hand in glove?

It seems, too, that the lack of ecclesiastical discipline in the Church may be the product of other theological and philosophical shifts. Romano Amerio, a peritus at Vatican II, presents this fascnating commentary on the lack of discipline since Vatican II, which he poetically dubs a brevatio manus Domini a foreshortening of the hand of the Lord:

"The external fact is the disunity of the Church, visible in the disunity of the bishops among themselves, and with the Pope. The internal fact producing it is the renunciation, that is, the non-functioning of papal authority itself, from which the renunciation of all other authority derives...

Now, the peculiar feature of the pontificate of Paul VI was the tendency to shift the papacy from governing to admonishing, or in scholastic terminology, to restrict the field of preceptive law, which imposes an obligation, and to enlarge the field of directive law, which formulates a rule without imposing any obligation to observe it. The government of the Church thus loses half its scope, or to put it biblically, the hand of the Lord is foreshortened....

Two things are needed to maintain truth. First: remove the error from the doctrinal sphere, which is done by refuting erroneous arguments and showing that they are not convincing. Second: remove the person in error, that is depose him from officem which is done by an act of the Church's authority. If this pontifical service is not performed, it would seem unjustified to say that all means have been used to maintain the doctrine of the Church: we are in the presence of a brevatio manus Domini....

The origin of this whole brevatio manus lies quite clearly in the opening speech of the Second Vatican Council, which announced an end to the condemnation of error, a policy which was maintained by Paul VI throughout the whole of his pontificate. As a teacher, he held to the traditional formulas expressing the orthodox faith, but as a pastor, he did not prevent the free circulation of unorthodox ideas, assuming the they would of themselves eventually take an orthodox form and become compatible with truth. Errors were identified and the Catholic faith reiterated, but specific persons were not condemned for their erroneous teaching, and the schismatic situation in the Church was disguised and tolerated....

The general effect of a renunciation of authority is to bring authority into disrepute and to lead it to be ignored by those who are subject to it, since a subject cannot hold a higher view of authority than authority holds of itself....

The renunciation of authority, even as applied to doctrinal affairs, which had been begun by John XXIII and pursued by Paul VI, has been continued by John Paul II." (Iota Unum: A Study of Changes in the Catholic Church in the XXth Century)

Amerio cites the amazing testimony of Carinal Oddi, who spoke to a gathering of Catholic United for the Faith in the 1970s. Amerio shows, in his answer, that refusal to exercise discipline in the Church has at its heart a philosophical shift:

The Prefect for the Congregation of the Clergy was insistently asked why the Holy See did not remove those who taught error, such as Fr. Curran, who had for years been openly attacking Humanae Vitae, and who teaches the licitness of sodomy. Why was it that the Holy See did not correct and disavow those bishops, such as Mgr. Gerety, who depart from sound doctrine and protect those who corrupt the faith? The Cardinal replied that "The Church no longer imposes punishments. She hopes instead to persuade those who err." She has chosen this course "perhaps because she does not have precise information about the different cases in which error arises, perhaps because she thinks it imprudent to take energetic measures, perhaps too because she wants to avoid event greater scandal through disobedience. The Church believes it is better to tolerate certain errors in the hope that when certain difficulties have been overcome, the person in error will reject his error and return to the Church."

This is an admission of the brevatio manus... and an assertion of the innovation announced in the opening speech of the council: error contains within itself the means of its own correction, and there is no need to assist to process: it is enough to let it unfold, and it will correct itself. Charity is held to synonymous with tolerance, indulgence takes precedence over severity, the common good of the ecclesial community is overlooked in the interests of a misused individual liberty [and] the sensus logicus and the virtue of fortitude proper to the Church are lost. The reality is that the Church ought to preserve and defend the truth with all the means available to a perfect society." (ibid.)

Here, it seems, is a directclash between the Church's pre-conciliar Thomistic realism and a post-conciliar emphasis on a certain kind of personalism which increasingly looks like a divorce from reality and a rejection of commmon sense. Further, as the years have passed since Vatican II, these now-stock excuses for why the Vatican has refused to discipline renegade priests and bishops have crumbled, one by one. Certainly the many decades over which the crisis has spread have been sufficient to gather the information necessary to judge the erroneous opinions of various priests and bishops accurately and justly. And the "greater scandal" argument - most often formulated in terms of the avoidance of open schism - has now been shown falses in the most recent clerical sex scandals. The Holy Father could have removed many deviant bishops and priests with complete impunity. The other bishops would have not dared defy him on such an issue, especially since those most apt to break openly with Rome tend to have scandalous skeletons in their own closets. With even the secular world rightly expecting tough treatment of such deviancy, who would have dared go into schism over the situation? But has any disciplinary action been taken? Rather, in yet another bow to the novelty of collegiality, the entire problem was handed back to the national hierarchy which, through its own laxity, spawned the scandal in the first place.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Current Events; Ecumenism; General Discusssion; Moral Issues; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: catholic; catholiclist; church; discipline; heaven; hell; morality; pope; theology
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To: DPalm
Thus, the reality of souls in Hell is taught infallibly by the Catholic Church, by virtue of her ordinary univeral magisterium.

Well, John Paul II and many others disagree with you:

The silence of the Church [on the subject of universal salvation] is, therefore, the only appropriate position for Christian faith. Even when Jesus says of Judas, the traitor, "it would be better for that man if he had never been born" (Mt 26:24), his words do not allude for certain to eternal damnation.

This is from John Paul II's "Crossing the Threshold of Hope."

The best one could say is that "hope" is here synonymous with "wish", that we might "wish" that no one goes to Hell. This might be theologically permitted, but I continue to question whether the Catholic Tradition really justifies such speculation and I'm adamant that in our present historical context it is manifestly harmful.

Harmful? That we pray there are no souls in hell? Doen't the Church pray that all men be saved? If we're sure that some men are certainly going to perish, then shouldn't we pray for the salvation of "some" souls, rather than "every" soul?

I'm sure you're one of those who also believes that unbaptized infants with absolute dogmatic certainty will never see God.

How do you have such certainty? Because Gregory of Nazianzen says so?

121 posted on 04/06/2004 10:18:51 AM PDT by sinkspur (Adopt a dog or a cat from an animal shelter! It will save one life, and may save two.)
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To: Pyro7480
Ping, post #106.

**

Very good, my friend.
122 posted on 04/06/2004 10:32:52 AM PDT by Bigg Red (Never again trust Democrats with national security!)
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To: sinkspur
[ Well, John Paul II and many others disagree with you ]

Indeed. But it is my contention that, should some one of these "many" attempt to harmonize this modern speculation with the unanimous views of the Fathers, Doctors, Popes and Councils that have preceded him, he would be unable to do so. At least Hans urs Von Balthasar was unable to do so in his book "Dare We Hope...."

[ Harmful? That we pray there are no souls in hell? Doen't the Church pray that all men be saved? If we're sure that some men are certainly going to perish, then shouldn't we pray for the salvation of "some" souls, rather than "every" soul? ]

The Church does not pray that there are no souls in hell. She prays for the salvation of every individual soul, since each man has the potential to be saved and God desires none to perish. This does not overturn the fact that some will not be saved, as Scripture and Tradition attest.

I outlined a number of harmful practical results of creeping universalism in my article. There are others, but those are sufficient to make this line of speculation imprudent, to say the least.

[ I'm sure you're one of those who also believes that unbaptized infants with absolute dogmatic certainty will never see God. How do you have such certainty? Because Gregory of Nazianzen says so? ]

"I'm sure you're one of those.....How do you have such certainty?" Hmmmm. From whence do you get this certainty about my views?

Another question in return is how you can assert that there is uncertainty with regard to human souls in Hell in the face of the unanimous and repeated witness of 1900 years of Fathers, Doctors, Popes and Councils. Can you cite even one magisterial or traditional source prior to, say, 1960 that supports the modern speculation? I'm not saying one doesn't exist, but I have yet to see it. If not, on what Catholic principle is a question or "hope" inserted where the unanimous Catholic Tradition finds no place for one?
123 posted on 04/06/2004 10:57:01 AM PDT by DPalm
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To: sinkspur
The article was interesting. I do think, however, that the hope which it offers, while perhaps possible, is more or less inherently unlikely. Its possibility, while there, strikes one as being as likely that the world will end next month or that a spaceship from outerspace will land in the middle of Tokyo later this week. It could happen, but it might not be the wisest idea to frame one's entire outlook on its possibility.

The reality and nature of sin is often underestimated. It is tempting at times to look at sin in the sense of merely being "an offense against God", a "breaking of the law". Sin is far deeper than that. Sin is a sliding slope where one chooses self above God and neighbor. All sin in some way breaks the First Commandment, as through sinning we truly do set ourselves as a god above God. This action becomes habitual and rooted in one's soul. If not acted against through an active effort to embrace God's free gift of grace, it can become a dominating force in one's existence. Most do not fall into the darkest levels of sin. Those levels seem to be reserved for the most able of beings, as C.S. Lewis wisely pointed out.

Sin is Hell. In everlasting hell, we are simply left to our sins, which is a punishment greater than any "fire" that may be present. But, Hell is a choice. The true sinner ultimately chooses sin and chooses himself. God grants us His grace, but God's grace does not overcome free will. To place all one's hope on the emptiness of hell seems to be to underestimate man's potential for devotion to himself and his own way. I am personally of the belief that most of us ultimately choose ourselves above God, and that those who, in the end, actually accept God's grace to change us are simply pure miracles.

Of course, that all men would somehow embrace the changing grace of God through Jesus Christ, in one way or another, would be a great miracle. I would hesitate to say that it is the greatest miracle, however - that title is reserved to the action of God that allowed that any of us could be saved at all.
124 posted on 04/06/2004 11:00:37 AM PDT by William Martel
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To: William Martel
To place all one's hope on the emptiness of hell seems to be to underestimate man's potential for devotion to himself and his own way

I think it's an overstatement to say that anyone who prays that all men might be saved are placing all one's hope in whether that happens or not.

125 posted on 04/06/2004 11:12:40 AM PDT by sinkspur (Adopt a dog or a cat from an animal shelter! It will save one life, and may save two.)
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To: DPalm
Thank you so much for your article! I tend not to be the brightest starfish in the sea and had to print it out to digest it over a few days, but WOW it was great!

Lots of good discussion here as well!
126 posted on 04/06/2004 11:18:33 AM PDT by netmilsmom (Busybody of Free Republic)
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To: sinkspur
I think it's an overstatement to say that anyone who prays that all men might be saved are placing all one's hope in whether that happens or not.

There is no problem with praying that all men be saved. It is a holy sentiment. I merely caution against hinging one's hopes on such a thing actually happening. God's omnipotence does not extend to violating free will, as omnipotence cannot contain logical contradictions. We must be careful about underestimating man's propensity for choosing himself above God.

127 posted on 04/06/2004 11:21:58 AM PDT by William Martel
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To: DPalm
Wonderful article. Thank you for writing it.
128 posted on 04/06/2004 11:51:04 AM PDT by Canticle_of_Deborah
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To: sinkspur; Aquinasfan; ninenot; johnb2004
The Pope was not "wrong" in his audience. He did not make a mistake, and spoke his mind on the subject.

Interesting sinky. You mind explaining why the edited version came out differently and why Karlos Woytila the individual priest did not correct them and explain further what he actually meant?

Amazing you only quote individuals and none by way of Ordinary and Universal Magisterium. Speculation is your stock of trade.

129 posted on 04/06/2004 12:14:52 PM PDT by m4629
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To: DPalm
Excellent article and follow up. Bravo.
130 posted on 04/06/2004 12:18:41 PM PDT by m4629
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To: sinkspur
"it would be better for that man if he had never been born" (Mt 26:24), his words do not allude for certain to eternal damnation.

What else could it allude to?

131 posted on 04/06/2004 1:04:56 PM PDT by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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To: m4629
Thank you "m" and all who have expressed their thanks. I'm glad the article was helpful.

Thanks especially to "pyro" for his hard work in transcribing it for the FreeRepublic community (Ah! I've used the "C" word! Shame on me ;o)

By the way, the entire text is now on-line in a single place at:

http://www.seattlecatholic.com/article_20040406.html
132 posted on 04/06/2004 1:05:22 PM PDT by DPalm
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To: m4629
Karlos Woytila

Who is Karlos Woytila?

133 posted on 04/06/2004 1:10:06 PM PDT by sinkspur (Adopt a dog or a cat from an animal shelter! It will save one life, and may save two.)
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To: DPalm
You're going to "get in trouble" with some for getting Seattle Catholic to post your article on their website. They're a bunch of "radical traditionalists," you know. ;-) If I had only waited a few days for them to post it.... Oh well, it was worth it. :-)
134 posted on 04/06/2004 1:16:11 PM PDT by Pyro7480 (Sub tuum praesidium confugimus, sancta Dei Genitrix.... sed a periculis cunctis libera nos semper...)
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To: sinkspur; ninenot; johnb2004; Aquinasfan
Who is Karlos Woytila?

Switching gears again sinky? I'll ask again, WHY did Karlos not correct his editors who put out a different version than his speech and, WHY did Karlos not bother to explain further what he actually meant?

135 posted on 04/06/2004 1:30:17 PM PDT by m4629
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To: Pyro7480
[ You're going to "get in trouble" with some for getting Seattle Catholic to post your article on their website. ]

It's too late.....I'm already in trouble with the New Inquisition (you know, the one that is constantly chiding us "integrists" for expressing ourselves without Church authority, while at the same time they have none either ;o)

[ If I had only waited a few days for them to post it.... Oh well, it was worth it. :-) ]

It's funny because Monday morning I logged on to SeattleCatholic.com to get Peter Miller's e-mail address and see if he'd like to host the article. And there were the links to it on FreeRepublic! But he wanted to post it anyway, so we went ahead with that (and we were able to correct the missing phrase in Canon 212 that "heyheyhey" so charitably pointed out.)

But thanks again for your hard work. Keep the Faith.

In Christ,

David
136 posted on 04/06/2004 1:31:59 PM PDT by DPalm
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To: sinkspur; ninenot; johnb2004; Aquinasfan
WHY are you unable to produce Ordinary and Universal Magisterium to support your speculation, sinky?
137 posted on 04/06/2004 1:36:58 PM PDT by m4629
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To: m4629
I'll ask again, WHY did Karlos not correct his editors who put out a different version than his speech and, WHY did Karlos not bother to explain further what he actually meant?

And I'll ask again: who is Karlos?

Or do you mean Karol?

And why are you not referring to him by his Papal name, John Paul II?

138 posted on 04/06/2004 1:47:25 PM PDT by sinkspur (Adopt a dog or a cat from an animal shelter! It will save one life, and may save two.)
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To: sinkspur
OH yeah, my bad typing again, blame the smog in CA.......LOL

Karol it is.

Regardless, neither Karol nor you have been unable to produce Ordinary and Universal Magisterium to your speculation.

I'm afraid it could be too late by the time you find out "for certain" down there, sinky.
139 posted on 04/06/2004 1:53:47 PM PDT by m4629
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To: m4629
Regardless, neither Karol nor you have been unable to produce Ordinary and Universal Magisterium to your speculation.

Well, if neither of us have been unable to produce it, then we must have produced it.

140 posted on 04/06/2004 2:00:33 PM PDT by sinkspur (Adopt a dog or a cat from an animal shelter! It will save one life, and may save two.)
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