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Ping.

"The spirit of lawlessness came in with the Reformation, and Liberalism is its offspring."
- John Henry Cardinal Newman

"fertile ground for growth, and particularly in the Protestant countries. It was in part a reaction to a distorted view of women, quite different from the view of the Middle Ages, in a Catholic society where there were many outlets for a woman to exercise her influence and capacities."

This is what I have been teaching my daughter, tho I reached that conclusion based upon my own knowledge of history. Her current heroine is Eleanor of Aquitane.

There is an excellent book about Women in the Middle Ages, which supports this view.

ping

In my opinion, the greatest loss to the high status women had gained by the end of the Middle Ages was doing away with the cult and devotion to Our Lady.

There's much to be said for this view.

Later

I'm sorry but I have to admit I giggled my way through most of this article. Dr. Horvat, for all of her education seems to grasp little more than a cliche'd view of Protestant theology generally; and her understanding of such concepts as sola Scriptura and sola Fides in particular are insufficient for her to pass even a 10th grade Religion exam in a conservative Protestant Lutheran or Anglican parochial school.

Please tell me this isn't an honest representation of how little Roman Catholic scholars understand of Protestant theology...please?

This is a vapid hit piece.

I won't get into the theology.

I will say, independently, that my historical studies suggest that women had it better in the Middle Ages than they did after the Reformation.

For one thing, the religious orders made it possible for women to be educated and to hold influential positions as nuns. After the monasteries were abolished, there was no similar role for women in Protestant religious life.

For another, women seem to have been treated better in matters such as owning their own property. Widows could continue to run their husbands' businesses. Women could hold castles when their husbands were off fighting somewhere else. And so forth.

So, I won't get into the reasons, but it's generally true that womens' rights decreased in the Renaissance and Reformation.

"In Protestantism, what replaced virginity and poverty as the essential female virtue that signal holiness?... Rather, the essential virtue for women became obedience"

I can't believe this article would argue that it is better to keep a woman a virgin and in poverty than just simply be obedient to her husband. And the author feels this is what started women's lib?!? Is this the National Equirer of the Catholic Press?

But what's worse, judging from some of these posts is that some of you believe it!!! This is prove positive that you Catholics are so gullible and will believe anything that comes out of some Catholic approved printing plant.

Dr. Horvat is sounding a little feminist herself in all her outrage here. I have to wonder, if she lived in her beloved middle ages, I very much doubt she'd be allowed to write publicly, let alone go out to speak in public.

This: "The saintly women desire nothing else than the natural fruit of their bodies. For by nature woman has been created for the purpose of bearing children. Therefore she has breasts. She has arms for the purpose of nourishing, cherishing and carrying her offspring." Again, the purely natural view of woman. Nothing of the supernatural.

Compare to:

"... the woman, being seduced, was in the transgression. Yet she shall be saved through child bearing; if she continue in faith and love and sanctification with sobriety." (1 St. Timothy 2.14-15).

I can't say Luther is far off from St. Paul.

Rather, the essential virtue for women became obedience, but it was an exaggerated obedience with no rule or intermediary, the Catholic Church, to govern its practice.

Compare to:

"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection." (1 St. Timothy 2.11)

"Let women be subject to their husbands, as to the Lord: Because the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ is the head of the church. He is the saviour of his body. Therefore as the church is subject to Christ: so also let the wives be to their husbands in all things. ... let the wife fear her husband." (Ephesians 5.22-24, 32)

"In like manner also, let wives be subject to their husbands: that, if any believe not the word, they may be won without the word, by the conversation of the wives, ... For after this manner heretofore, the holy women also who trusted in God adorned themselves, being in subjection to their own husbands: As Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters you are, doing well and not fearing any disturbance." (1 St. Peter 1.1, 5-6)

"On the other hand, the duties of a wife are thus summed up ... To train their children in the practice of virtue and to pay particular attention to their domestic concerns should also be especial objects of their attention. The wife should love to remain at home, unless compelled by necessity to go out; and she should never presume to leave home without her husband's consent." (Catechism of the Council of Trent, "On Matrimony")
http://www.cin.org/users/james/ebooks/master/trent/tsacr-m.htm)

My fellows! Does your wife actually follow this, or does she "run free" without consulting you? Where is this sort of sensible direction in Dr. Horvat's article?

Instead, Dr. Horvat is replacing the husband with the Church as the intermediary! Clearly, she missed this command of the Apostle:

"Let women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted them to speak but to be subject, as also the law saith. But if they would learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is a shame for a woman to speak in the church." (1 Corinthians 14.34-35)

Let me reemphasize that. "But if they would learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home." Not the Church, not other women, but "their husbands" "at home." Dr. Horvat contradicting St. Paul is an excellent example of the very point St. Paul was making.

I have never trusted this lady, and do so even less now.

Marian Therese Horvat, Ph.D.

Interesting that a CATHOLIC woman is teaching here, contrary to 1 Timothy 2. Apparently she isn't willing to return to 13th century womanhood herself.

Protestant revolution was not the origin of protestantism.The first protestant church was the apostolic church. The church depicted in New Testament Bible do not pray to “saints” or use statues\images in prayer,worship or have other lies like compulsory celibacy,purgatory,transubstantiation,Apostolic succession etc. Thus the original Apostolic God’s Church was Protestant/Evangelical in essence. Later in 4th century Constantine the then roman emperor gave Christianity a special status in his empire,inorder to consolidate the diminishing power of his goverment because of the fastly increasing christian minority that was spread throughout the Roman empire.Through the edict of milan, thessalonica and council of nicae what they did was not toleration for christianity,but to create a new fake religion in the name of Jesus,in which they integrated the ancient roman idolatry as the practice of intercession to saints. Many christians at that time and after 4th century AD, were against this.Some of them were early Jewish Christians,Donatists, Manichaens,Paulicians,Bogomils,Cathars,Waldensians,Hussites and finally Protestants. When Constantine gave Christianity a special status in his empire in-order to consolidate the diminishing power of his government because of the fastly increasing christian minority that was spreading throughout the Roman empire.But majority in his empire was still pagan and they found it hard to forgo of their old idolatrous practices. So the state changed the names of their old idols to “christian” names and continued to use them in prayer/worship . This came to be known as “intercession/veneration to saints” and is still practiced by catholic and orthodox ‘christians’.Other pagan to christian transmutations include changing of Solar mass of December 25th to Christ mass,changing of fertility goddess Ishtar festival to Easter. True Christians like early Jewish christians,Donatists(North Africa,Southern Europe),Manichaens(middle east,,central asia) who existed from1st-15th century AD,opposed this idolatrous practice of intercession/veneration of saints but catholics branded them heretics and massacred them.Later Paulicians & Bogomils who existed from6-12th century AD were against this idolatrous practice.Aftar that Cathars who existed from 11-13th century AD,Waldensians,Hussites & Protestants who existed from 11th century AD till this day, were against this idolatrous practice and other unscriptural lies of catholic/orthodox sects.Iconoclastic movement of (7th-8th century) century was against this practice, later protestant revolution (15-16th century) was waged mainly against this practice. Thus when Constantine gave Christianity special status in his empire,idolatry also entered along with it in the unsuspecting name of “intercession to saints”.This soon spread to most of the church,because such was the influence of roman empire at that time.But few like early Jewish Christians,Donatists(North African Christians) and followers of Mani ~ Manichean’s (Mani was a 2nd century apostle of Jesus whose followers spread from Persia to Balkans in the west and to China in the east,before falling into oblivion probably because of Islamic conquest) remained true to the gospel of Lord Jesus Christ,despite severe persecutions from Catholic/Orthodox sects. Later remenants of these Christians spread to Turkey and Balkans where they were called Paulicians and Bogomils respectively in 6th century AD.They were behind the Iconoclastic movement of 7-8th century(Protestant-Christian revolution of 16th century is considered by scholars to be the 2nd Iconoclastic movement).Both these groups came under heavy persecution from Catholics because they dared to expose the truth of Christ to them.Finally they were wiped out by catholic crusaders,en route to capture Jerusalem by a secret directive from Vatican in 12th century,perhaps the real intention of antichristians(catholics) for taking up crusades was to wipe out true christian like Paulcians and Bogomils who exposed their idolatry and lies. But almost simultaneously,the spirit of God started 2 new christian movements in heart of Catholicism itself~in Italy and France in 11th century AD . In italy they were called Waldensians and in France they were called Cathars .Cathars were wiped out in the 12th centutry by catholic crusaders~a mass murder popularly called as cathar/albunesian crusade (catholic church still take great “evil” pride in these crusades) .But Italian Waldensians continued to survive despite of severe catholic persecution and they remain to this day . By 15th century printing was invented and bible became available to masses . The ignorant masses came to know about truth that catholic church was doing idolatry in the name of god and following unscriptural lies. They revolted and it came to be known as protestant revolution and were led by many great leaders like Jan Hus,Jan Zizka,Martin Luther,Ulrich Zwingli,John Calvin,Petr Celcisky,John Knox,John Wesley and many others .Today protestants number more than 900 million . In future (after the soon coming WW3) they(protestants/evangelicals) will unite as single God’s church and all people living on earth will be it’s members.The 3rd temple will be rebuilt in Jerusalem and it shall be called “the house of prayer for people of all nations” exactly as Jesus predicted nearly 2000 years ago.Animal and other sacrifices will be offered there in the remembrance of the ultimate sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross,just as it symbolized the coming sacrifice of Lord Jesus Christ in the old testament period.Thiswill remain till coming of Lord Jesus Christ in mid heavens to take his church from this earth ( rapture) . In rapture believers will be taken and hypocrites left behind to face great tribulation(such as never happened before or never will in the future) which will last for 7 years.In the half of this 7 year period antichrist will break his agreement with Israeli’s and set himself up in Jerusalem Temple as God,and stop the temple sacrifices and offerings.He will require all to have number 666 imprinted on them to buy or sell.Those who get this mark of 666 are damned for eternalhell.So anybody who happens to be in tribulation period,want salvation he/she has to die as martyrs,or be a part of 144,000 who will be fed in wilderness. I understand catholics will be angered by this, but their anger is in vain because this is the truth and truth will triumph.Also note that throughout the centuries catholics branded(and still branding) all these groups as dualistic pagans heretics who need to be wiped out from face of earth… such brandings(stereotypings) were less effective against prots,inorder to fulfill the prophecy of Jesus-”You are peter(petros-masculine noun in greek, meaning a small stone) and i shall build my church(non feminist Protestantism) on this rock(petra-feminine noun in Greek, meaning a large mass of rock,not the degrading dead body of peter buried under Vatican as catholics claim/believe)and gates of hell(Catholicism and other false religions/ideologies) will not prevail over it”. The Roman Catholic Church interprets Jesus here to say, “You are Peter, and upon you, Peter, I will build My church.” Peter would be the rock upon which the church is built. There are several problems with this interpretation. The first is that someone reading Matthew’s Gospel in Greek, the original language of the New Testament, would not have immediately concluded that Peter was the rock. In the Gospel of Matthew, when Jesus said to Simon, “You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church” (Matthew 16:18), His choice of words was significant. Though Peter’s name means rock (petros), Jesus did not say, “You are Peter (Petros), and upon this rock (petros-which accurately means a small unstable stone) I will build my church,instead he said you are peter(petros) and i shall build my church on this petra(meaning bedrock,or a large rock mass). Peter’s name, Petros,is masculine in gender and refers to a boulder or a detached stone. Greek literature also uses it of a small stone that might be picked up and thrown. What Jesus said to Peter could be translated, “You are Stone, and upon this bedrock I will build My church.” His choice of words would indicate that the rock on which the church would be built was something other than Peter,which can only refer to the revelation given to Peter by the most high God,that is-Jesus is the Christ(messiah), the Son of the living God in the given scriptural context-Mathew16:16-18. Also apostolic succession claim by catholic/orthodox sects by which they claim that authority of keys given by Lord Jesus to Peter in Mathew16:19 is transferred only to a select few leaders who have dubious claim of lineage to Peter like catholic papacy.ButLord Jesus gave this “authority of keys” to all his believers/followers in Mathew18:18.Thus this Apostolic succession claim of catholic/orthodox sects is proved to be another lie by scriptures. These are the events that will happen in the future:- After the soon coming WW3/Gog Magog war(Ezekiel 38,39) all false religion in the world will become extinct and the all people living on earth will become members of the one true religion of God aka God’s/Christ’s church aka non feminist protestantism(those christians that reject catholic/orthodox idolatry of intercession/veneration of saints and other lies like apostolic succession and donot promote feminist lies like female pastors and sexual perversions like homosexuality/adultery etc) atleast for namesake. The 3rd temple will be built in Jerusalem and animal and other sacrifices will be offered their in tribute to eternal and ultimate sacrifice of Lord Jesus Christ on the cross for the sins of all mankind ,some 2000 years ago. People from all nations of the earth will come to offer their prayer and sacrifices in this temple and the temple shall be called “house of prayer for people of all nations” exactly as God spoke through prophet Isiah,which was repeated by Lord Jesus-Mark11:17,Mathew21:13,Isiah56:7. Then rapture will occur in which Lord Jesus will come in mid-heavens with trumpet sound of arch-angel and take all true christians(both living and dead) to heaven and leave behind all hypocrites-namesake christians on earth to face 7 year tribulation period aka wrath of God. Events that happen on earth before rapture(church age) are detailed in Mathew24:4-14,Mark13:5-13, The rapture event is detailed in 1Thessalonians 4:13-18,2Thessalonians2:7. After the rapture, for 7 years great tribulation/wrath of God on those who rejected him will occur all over earth.At the end of this 7 year period Jesus will come with 10,000′s of his saints and defeat satanic forces of beast and false prophet and send beast and false prophet to lake of fire and sulfur which burn eternally ,ressurect the 144,000 elect of Israel along with martyrs of great tribulation period who didn’t recieve the mark of the beast,which is 666--Revelations 20:4-6 (this ressurection along with the ressurection of the rapture and the resurrection of Jesus Christ along with some ressurected saints who appeared to people in Jerusalem after Jesus rose from the dead(Mathew27:52,53) is the ressurection of the just),set up his millennial kingdom and martyrs of church period,old testament period and the great tribulation period will rule with Lord Jesus Christ for the 1000 years(millenium)-Revelations 20:4 and chain Satan in the abyss for a period of 1000 years-Revelations 20:1-3 .These events are detailed in Revelations chapter 4 to chapter 20:6,Jude1:14-15. After this thousand years Satan will be set loose for a short while and he will bring many nations(Gog and magog) to attack God’s people.But fire will come down from heaven and destroy them,and Satan will be thrown into lake of fire and sulfur to which beast (antichrist) and false prophet was thrown and will burn eternally-Revelation20:7-10. Then God will sit in a white thrown and earth and heaven will flee away from his prescence and all who were not resurrected in the resurrection of the just, will be ressurected and will be judged according to their works and all those whose names are not written in the book of life will be sent to lake of fire and sulfur which burn eternally.Then New heavens,New Earth and New Jerusalem will come for all eternity which will be God dwelling with all whose names are written in the book of Life, forever.-Revelations20:11-22:21.

In Mathew 12:38-42 Jesus says this-12:38- Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.
12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
12:41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.” (Matthew 12:38-42 KJV)…these are words of Jesus in gospel of mathew and if it is true Jesus should be died for 3 days and 3 nights(72 hours).

But catholic church has twisted all this saying he died on a friday and rose on a sunday morning,which makes 42 hours at the most.

Besides this,in mathew 26:17 and certain other scriptures they omitted the word “before”.Mathew 26:17 now reads “Now on the first day of Unleavened Bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying, “Where will you have us prepare for you to eat the Passover?”.But when “before” is added as in the original manuscripts it should have read like this-Now before the first day of Unleavened Bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying, “Where will you have us prepare for you to eat the Passover?”

In leviticus 23 it’s clearly written that passover day comes before the 1st day of feast of unleavened bread.

Also catholicism and most churches claims jesus rose from the dead on 1st day aftersabbath.but in gospel of Luke it says- The women who had come with him from Galilee followed, and saw the tomb, and how his body was laid; 56 then they returned, and prepared spices and ointments. On the sabbath they rested according to thecommandment.So the women with Jesus had to rest on “high”sabbath day.

Also scriptures tells us they had to rest on another “normal” sabbath day.(Mark 16:1).After that sabbath day on the first day of the week which is also the day of 1st fruits,the women came to the tomb saw it was open and witnessed resurrected Jesus(Mark 16:2-9 & other gospels).This day symbolizes the coming great harvest on pentecost which comes 50 days after and on this day resurrected Jesus appeared to women and his disciples.50 days after that on pentecost day(alias harvest day) 120 disciples were assembled on the upper room and holy spirit came on them and thus the church was given birth and also the start of the great harvest.

Also in gospel of John it says- Since it was the day of Preparation, in order to prevent the bodies from remaining on the cross on the sabbath (for that sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away. Here “high sabbath” means 1st day of feast of unleavened bread.So from this verse it’s clear that Jesus was crucified on the passover day which is also the preparation day before the 1st day of feast of unleavened bread.

So from all this it’s clear that Jesus was crucified on passover day(9th hour that is 3PM-because Jewish calendar calculated day from 6PM onwards for 12 hours till 6AM ,and 12 hours from 6AM to 6PM make the 24 hour day,that is from 6PM on one day till 6PM on the next day was considered the full 24 hour day by Jews.The creation account also confirms this in Genesis 1:5,8,13,19,23,31 where evening comes before morning to form a full day) rose from the dead 72 hours later.That is on sabbath day 9th hour(3PM),and appeared to his followers on the following day morning-which was the day of 1st fruits.

Also its clear that catholic church omitted the ‘before ‘ from the scripture mathew 26:17 which now reads “Now on the first day of Unleavened Bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying, “Where will you have us prepare for you to eat the Passover?” ,when it actually read in the original manuscript like this-when “before” is added as in the original manuscripts it should have read like this-Now before the first day of Unleavened Bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying, “Where will you have us prepare for you to eat the Passover?”
In leviticus 23 it’s clearly written that passover day comes before the 1st day of feast of unleavened bread.
Why did catholic ‘church’ do this?To make it in conformity with ancient pagan festival of ishtar(modern easter) so the majority pagans of roman empire can be converted easily to ‘christianity’ without any conversion.

Hey, didn't you tell JR:

Your site, your choice. You want to tolerate whackjobs who claim Catholics rape women and murder children, go ahead. It is your sandbox. For me, I will find someplace without the whackjobs. Vale.

That was two months ago and you choose THIS way to reenter Free Republic?

The Rudiments of Protestantism

When I read what the author imagines these were in an article written twelve YEARS ago, I knew I needn't read any further. If one has to build ones premise on lies and straw men from the start, he/she deserves no further consideration.

See Historical/traditional interpretation of women speaking in the church, regarding 1 Corinthians 11:1-16 and 14:34,35, with 1 Timothy 2:8-15