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L.A. cardinal says Order of the Mass draft needs major work
Catholic News Service ^
| May 12, 2004
| Cindy Wooden
Posted on 05/12/2004 7:20:18 PM PDT by sidewalk
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To: dsc
I've tried that. It seems to upset the people around me. Do it anyway.
I get the same reaction (on the rare occasion I attend a NO-mass) when I refuse to hold hands with strangers and "sing" Our Father.
21
posted on
05/13/2004 5:11:52 AM PDT
by
AAABEST
(<a href="http://www.angelqueen.org/forum">Traditional Catholic News Forum</a>)
To: sidewalk
..."the last thing our people need is to now disrupt the liturgy, which has been a source of nourishment and strength during this difficult journey." Oh no, whatever you do, Briar Rabbit, don't let them disrupt the liturgy!
To: sidewalk
Despite hopes that English-speaking Catholics soon would have a new translation of Mass prayers, Cardinal Roger M. Mahony of Los Angeles said he and many other bishops believe the current draft needs major work. Well, I had my doubts at first, but now I'm quite sure the new translation is just fine.
23
posted on
05/13/2004 5:40:54 AM PDT
by
B Knotts
To: sinkspur
Cardinal Mahoney, believe it or not, does not speak for the body of bishops.
We shall see what the majority of the bishops think.
I would certainly not assume that the opinion of Cardinal Mahony, of all people, is somehow representative.
24
posted on
05/13/2004 5:44:29 AM PDT
by
B Knotts
To: sidewalk
If Mahony doesn't like it, it must be good.
25
posted on
05/13/2004 5:49:34 AM PDT
by
NeoCaveman
(The Clinton autobiography: coming soon to an adult bookstore near you.)
To: sidewalk
"The danger is that that kind of new Roman Missal, if it were approved in such a stilted fashion, would simply not be used," he said. Let me translate from Mahoney-speak.
"The danger is that that kind of new Roman Missal, if it were approved in such a stilted a liturgically accurate fashion, would simply not be used teach AmChurchism," he said.
Anyone remember Cardinal Mahony's "document on the Eucharist" about which Mother Angelica had a thing or two to say a while back?
26
posted on
05/13/2004 5:50:28 AM PDT
by
B Knotts
To: AAABEST
At the church I attend, the hand holding used to be pretty much universal, but we got a new, faithful, orthodox priest and now it's down to about 50-60%.
27
posted on
05/13/2004 5:52:45 AM PDT
by
B Knotts
To: sidewalk; GatorGirl; maryz; *Catholic_list; afraidfortherepublic; Antoninus; Aquinasfan; Askel5; ...
I attend the Latin Mass, it works as well today as it did 500 years ago and 1,500 years ago. If Roger doesn't like the english version, say the Latin.
28
posted on
05/13/2004 6:23:05 AM PDT
by
narses
(If you want ON or OFF my Catholic Ping List email me. +)
To: sidewalk
Cardinal Roger M. Mahony of Los Angeles said he and many other bishops believe the current draft needs major work. And I and many others believe Mahoney needs major work.
29
posted on
05/13/2004 6:28:12 AM PDT
by
maryz
To: sidewalk; *Catholic_list; american colleen; sinkspur; Lady In Blue; Salvation; Polycarp IV; ...
Cardinal Mahony said, "This is obviously considered by everybody as a first draft." He wasn't consulted on this one; that makes it a 'draft'.
30
posted on
05/13/2004 6:37:19 AM PDT
by
NYer
(O Promise of God from age to age. O Flower of the Gospel!)
To: sidewalk
Cardinal Mahony said he gave copies of the draft translation to members of his priests' council and asked them to "read it out loud" with members of their parish liturgy committees. Because the prayers are meant to be proclaimed, he said, "you can only capture whether it works or doesn't work in hearing it out loud." "Most of the responses I got back were quite negative," Cardinal Mahony said. If the pink dress crowd does not like it, then I assume it is what God desires.
To: sinkspur
The real agenda is revealed in the last few paragraphs.
We can all agree that the draft has its demerits. But Mahony's complaint about 'un-readable' is window dressing. His real agenda is simply to avoid literal translations, no matter how elegant (King James, e.g.) or faithful.
What ICEL should do now is come back with a more elegant and even more precisely-worded translation which is more literally accurate.
Mahony, on the other hand, should spend more time with the defense lawyers, because he will need it soon.
32
posted on
05/13/2004 7:16:50 AM PDT
by
ninenot
(Minister of Membership, TomasTorquemadaGentlemen'sClub)
To: sinkspur
Mahony and his cabal have NEVER been afraid to "adjust" the liturgy to their own ends up to this point--a specific example is his LitWonk Office's lengthy letter of about 7-8 years ago, almost all of which was written by an individual whose understanding of liturgy was approximately similar to that of a high-school sophomore.
Now, all of a sudden, Mahony calls for "stability?"
Please.
33
posted on
05/13/2004 7:21:54 AM PDT
by
ninenot
(Minister of Membership, TomasTorquemadaGentlemen'sClub)
To: sidewalk
34
posted on
05/13/2004 7:25:25 AM PDT
by
B Knotts
To: ninenot; sinkspur
My modest suggestion (speaking from my Anglican background) is to use the most scholarly translation in use in England as close to the time of the Latin Rite as possible. That would be Cranmer's translation of 1549.
Archbishop Cranmer, whatever his faults (including messing with the words of consecration in a very Protestant sort of way) was a scholar and a poet - his translation otherwise is not only accurate but very beautiful. Educated Englishmen of the 16th and 17th centuries wrote the purest and most beautiful form of our language that has ever been used.
The Anglican Use Rite solves the translation problem by using Cranmer's translation in all but the Consecration - for that it turns to a direct translation of the Latin form used in England immediately before the Reformation.
35
posted on
05/13/2004 7:26:11 AM PDT
by
AnAmericanMother
(. . . Ministrix of Venery (recess appointment), TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary . . .)
To: Unam Sanctam; sinkspur; BlackElk
The nonsense about it being necessary to change the words and the meaning to "acculturate" is simply a ruse to subtly change what is being taught in the liturgy, such as the systematic elimination of references to "spirit", etc. Your post, US, distills the Americanist heresy still advocated by Mahony, and to a lesser extent our FRiend, Sinky.
I believe the operative encyclical on the matter is Testem Benevolentiae, wherein the Pope smacked upside the head the main proponents of this deviation.
Of course, this particular goodie is also condemned as a part of Modernism.
36
posted on
05/13/2004 7:27:02 AM PDT
by
ninenot
(Minister of Membership, TomasTorquemadaGentlemen'sClub)
To: ninenot
Hey, high school sophomores everywhere resent that comparison! ;-) Not only is my daughter a sophomore, she was an Episcopalian until this January.
She not only understood the Catholic liturgy and doctrine so well that her instructor said she didn't need to go to confirmation class -- she had her instructor scurrying out of the conference room across the reception area (where I was sitting) into the library for a copy of the Canons to answer some of her questions.
Of course, our conversion has been a process rather than a single event . . . and she has always been one for asking questions (and I have always been one for looking up answers.) I think those who take the trouble to convert are usually the ones who have been asking the hard questions all along . . .
BTW, I think Mahoney is at best a goof and at worst a fifth columnist. I would think his criticism is the best recommendation the new revisions could have.
37
posted on
05/13/2004 7:31:45 AM PDT
by
AnAmericanMother
(. . . Ministrix of Venery (recess appointment), TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary . . .)
Comment #38 Removed by Moderator
Comment #39 Removed by Moderator
To: sartorius
I pray that at some point, the Vatican throws off its fear of heterodox schism, and opens up a can of whoop-a$$ on these guys.
40
posted on
05/13/2004 7:49:52 AM PDT
by
B Knotts
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