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L.A. cardinal says Order of the Mass draft needs major work
Catholic News Service ^ | May 12, 2004 | Cindy Wooden

Posted on 05/12/2004 7:20:18 PM PDT by sidewalk

VATICAN CITY (CNS) -- Despite hopes that English-speaking Catholics soon would have a new translation of Mass prayers, Cardinal Roger M. Mahony of Los Angeles said he and many other bishops believe the current draft needs major work.

An English draft of the "Ordo Missae," or Order of the Mass, was approved by the episcopal board of the International Commission on English in the Liturgy in January, and copies were sent to every Latin-rite bishop in the United States and other English-speaking countries.

"I felt that there are a few improvements that are very helpful, but the effort to translate every Latin word into English has not been successful," the cardinal said in a May 11 interview with Catholic News Service.

The cardinal was at the Vatican for his "ad limina" visit, which bishops make every five years to report on the status of their dioceses and to hold consultations with Vatican officials.

One of the topics visiting U.S. bishops have been raising with the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Sacraments is the ongoing effort to create English translations of Latin Mass prayers in a way that is faithful to the Latin and can be understood and proclaimed.

The Tablet, a London-based Catholic weekly, reported May 8 that the bishops of England and Wales were critical of the proposed Order of the Mass, particularly because of "lengthy sentences, poor syntax and archaic language."

In their plenary meeting May 11, the bishops of Australia voted to return the draft to ICEL for revision for similar reasons.

Cardinal Mahony said, "This is obviously considered by everybody as a first draft."

The Order of the Mass includes the prayers that are used at every Mass such as the Gloria, the Nicene Creed and the eucharistic prayers. It does not include all of the prayers that change each week during the liturgical year.

The new text is the first English translation of Mass prayers resulting from the 2002 publication of the third edition of the Roman Missal in Latin and from new translation rules contained in the 2001 Vatican instruction, "Liturgiam Authenticam" ("The Authentic Liturgy").

Cardinal Mahony said he gave copies of the draft translation to members of his priests' council and asked them to "read it out loud" with members of their parish liturgy committees.

Because the prayers are meant to be proclaimed, he said, "you can only capture whether it works or doesn't work in hearing it out loud."

"Most of the responses I got back were quite negative," Cardinal Mahony said.

The cardinal said there is an obvious "tension" between the principles enunciated in the 2001 Vatican document on translation and the needs of the priests and people.

"We simply cannot have a translation that is labored and is not easily proclaimed or understood," he said.

"The danger is that that kind of new Roman Missal, if it were approved in such a stilted fashion, would simply not be used," he said.

The cardinal said he was afraid that priests simply would continue using the old translation, "which, of course, is not helpful either."

Cardinal Mahony said he agreed with several bishops who have said the parts of the Mass recited by the entire congregation should not be changed.

"Following the (clerical sex abuse) scandal," he said, "the last thing our people need is to now disrupt the liturgy, which has been a source of nourishment and strength during this difficult journey."

The cardinal said he was in favor of changes "that are obviously an improvement, not just a change to be transliteral."

Cardinal Mahony predicted "it will reach a point where someone will have to reconcile these documents" on translation with the need to "help the local churches express the faith in the language as they use it."

"What is the more important value? Is the more important value to have a more precise translation of Latin into English or is it more important to have a translation that helps people's prayer be nourished and deepened? That, to me, is the more important question," the cardinal said.

"I think that if we are going to make a change to have a Roman Missal that will be with us for generations, let's take our time; let's do it well; let's make sure that it really is an improvement," he said.


TOPICS: Catholic; Worship
KEYWORDS: catholic; catholiclist; losangeles; mahony; mass
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To: dsc
I've tried that. It seems to upset the people around me.

Do it anyway.

I get the same reaction (on the rare occasion I attend a NO-mass) when I refuse to hold hands with strangers and "sing" Our Father.

21 posted on 05/13/2004 5:11:52 AM PDT by AAABEST (<a href="http://www.angelqueen.org/forum">Traditional Catholic News Forum</a>)
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To: sidewalk
..."the last thing our people need is to now disrupt the liturgy, which has been a source of nourishment and strength during this difficult journey."

Oh no, whatever you do, Briar Rabbit, don't let them disrupt the liturgy!

22 posted on 05/13/2004 5:15:32 AM PDT by Fifthmark
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To: sidewalk
Despite hopes that English-speaking Catholics soon would have a new translation of Mass prayers, Cardinal Roger M. Mahony of Los Angeles said he and many other bishops believe the current draft needs major work.

Well, I had my doubts at first, but now I'm quite sure the new translation is just fine.

23 posted on 05/13/2004 5:40:54 AM PDT by B Knotts
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To: sinkspur
Cardinal Mahoney, believe it or not, does not speak for the body of bishops.

We shall see what the majority of the bishops think.

I would certainly not assume that the opinion of Cardinal Mahony, of all people, is somehow representative.

24 posted on 05/13/2004 5:44:29 AM PDT by B Knotts
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To: sidewalk
If Mahony doesn't like it, it must be good.
25 posted on 05/13/2004 5:49:34 AM PDT by NeoCaveman (The Clinton autobiography: coming soon to an adult bookstore near you.)
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To: sidewalk
"The danger is that that kind of new Roman Missal, if it were approved in such a stilted fashion, would simply not be used," he said.

Let me translate from Mahoney-speak.

"The danger is that that kind of new Roman Missal, if it were approved in such a stilted a liturgically accurate fashion, would simply not be used teach AmChurchism," he said.

Anyone remember Cardinal Mahony's "document on the Eucharist" about which Mother Angelica had a thing or two to say a while back?

26 posted on 05/13/2004 5:50:28 AM PDT by B Knotts
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To: AAABEST
At the church I attend, the hand holding used to be pretty much universal, but we got a new, faithful, orthodox priest and now it's down to about 50-60%.
27 posted on 05/13/2004 5:52:45 AM PDT by B Knotts
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To: sidewalk; GatorGirl; maryz; *Catholic_list; afraidfortherepublic; Antoninus; Aquinasfan; Askel5; ...
I attend the Latin Mass, it works as well today as it did 500 years ago and 1,500 years ago. If Roger doesn't like the english version, say the Latin.
28 posted on 05/13/2004 6:23:05 AM PDT by narses (If you want ON or OFF my Catholic Ping List email me. +)
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To: sidewalk
Cardinal Roger M. Mahony of Los Angeles said he and many other bishops believe the current draft needs major work.

And I and many others believe Mahoney needs major work.

29 posted on 05/13/2004 6:28:12 AM PDT by maryz
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To: sidewalk; *Catholic_list; american colleen; sinkspur; Lady In Blue; Salvation; Polycarp IV; ...
Cardinal Mahony said, "This is obviously considered by everybody as a first draft."

He wasn't consulted on this one; that makes it a 'draft'.

30 posted on 05/13/2004 6:37:19 AM PDT by NYer (O Promise of God from age to age. O Flower of the Gospel!)
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To: sidewalk
Cardinal Mahony said he gave copies of the draft translation to members of his priests' council and asked them to "read it out loud" with members of their parish liturgy committees. Because the prayers are meant to be proclaimed, he said, "you can only capture whether it works or doesn't work in hearing it out loud." "Most of the responses I got back were quite negative," Cardinal Mahony said.

If the pink dress crowd does not like it, then I assume it is what God desires.

31 posted on 05/13/2004 6:37:35 AM PDT by johnb2004
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To: sinkspur
The real agenda is revealed in the last few paragraphs.

We can all agree that the draft has its demerits. But Mahony's complaint about 'un-readable' is window dressing. His real agenda is simply to avoid literal translations, no matter how elegant (King James, e.g.) or faithful.

What ICEL should do now is come back with a more elegant and even more precisely-worded translation which is more literally accurate.

Mahony, on the other hand, should spend more time with the defense lawyers, because he will need it soon.
32 posted on 05/13/2004 7:16:50 AM PDT by ninenot (Minister of Membership, TomasTorquemadaGentlemen'sClub)
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To: sinkspur
Mahony and his cabal have NEVER been afraid to "adjust" the liturgy to their own ends up to this point--a specific example is his LitWonk Office's lengthy letter of about 7-8 years ago, almost all of which was written by an individual whose understanding of liturgy was approximately similar to that of a high-school sophomore.

Now, all of a sudden, Mahony calls for "stability?"

Please.
33 posted on 05/13/2004 7:21:54 AM PDT by ninenot (Minister of Membership, TomasTorquemadaGentlemen'sClub)
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To: sidewalk
Flashback: Disturbing excerpts from interview with Cardinal Mahony
34 posted on 05/13/2004 7:25:25 AM PDT by B Knotts
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To: ninenot; sinkspur
My modest suggestion (speaking from my Anglican background) is to use the most scholarly translation in use in England as close to the time of the Latin Rite as possible. That would be Cranmer's translation of 1549.

Archbishop Cranmer, whatever his faults (including messing with the words of consecration in a very Protestant sort of way) was a scholar and a poet - his translation otherwise is not only accurate but very beautiful. Educated Englishmen of the 16th and 17th centuries wrote the purest and most beautiful form of our language that has ever been used.

The Anglican Use Rite solves the translation problem by using Cranmer's translation in all but the Consecration - for that it turns to a direct translation of the Latin form used in England immediately before the Reformation.

35 posted on 05/13/2004 7:26:11 AM PDT by AnAmericanMother (. . . Ministrix of Venery (recess appointment), TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary . . .)
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To: Unam Sanctam; sinkspur; BlackElk
The nonsense about it being necessary to change the words and the meaning to "acculturate" is simply a ruse to subtly change what is being taught in the liturgy, such as the systematic elimination of references to "spirit", etc.

Your post, US, distills the Americanist heresy still advocated by Mahony, and to a lesser extent our FRiend, Sinky.

I believe the operative encyclical on the matter is Testem Benevolentiae, wherein the Pope smacked upside the head the main proponents of this deviation.

Of course, this particular goodie is also condemned as a part of Modernism.

36 posted on 05/13/2004 7:27:02 AM PDT by ninenot (Minister of Membership, TomasTorquemadaGentlemen'sClub)
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To: ninenot
Hey, high school sophomores everywhere resent that comparison! ;-) Not only is my daughter a sophomore, she was an Episcopalian until this January.

She not only understood the Catholic liturgy and doctrine so well that her instructor said she didn't need to go to confirmation class -- she had her instructor scurrying out of the conference room across the reception area (where I was sitting) into the library for a copy of the Canons to answer some of her questions.

Of course, our conversion has been a process rather than a single event . . . and she has always been one for asking questions (and I have always been one for looking up answers.) I think those who take the trouble to convert are usually the ones who have been asking the hard questions all along . . .

BTW, I think Mahoney is at best a goof and at worst a fifth columnist. I would think his criticism is the best recommendation the new revisions could have.

37 posted on 05/13/2004 7:31:45 AM PDT by AnAmericanMother (. . . Ministrix of Venery (recess appointment), TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary . . .)
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Comment #39 Removed by Moderator

To: sartorius
I pray that at some point, the Vatican throws off its fear of heterodox schism, and opens up a can of whoop-a$$ on these guys.
40 posted on 05/13/2004 7:49:52 AM PDT by B Knotts
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