Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Father Zigrang suspended by Bishop Joseph Fiorenza
Christ or Chaos ^ | 15th July 2004 | Dr Thomas Droleskey

Posted on 07/15/2004 6:17:56 PM PDT by AskStPhilomena

Catholics exhibit fidelity to the Tradition of Holy Mother Church in many ways. Each of us has a distinctive, unrepeatable immortal soul that has personal characteristics of its own not shared by anyone else. Not even identical twins are the same in every respect. This plurality of souls in the Mystical Bride of Christ is reflected in the many different communities of men and women religious that have developed over the Church’s history. Each community has its own charism and mission. Ideally, each community of men and women religious should be totally faithful to everything contained in the Deposit of Faith and expressed and protected in the authentic Tradition of the Church. The means of expressing this fidelity, however, will vary from community to community.

What is true of communities of men and women religious is true also of us all, including our priests. Some priests have the patience of Saint Francis de Sales or Saint John Bosco, meek and mild, able to handle the rough seas that beset Holy Mother Church and/or themselves personally with perfect equanimity. Other priests have had the bluntness of St. John Mary Vianney and St. Padre Pio, mincing no words in their sermons about the necessity of rooting out sin and the possibility of going to Hell for all eternity. Both St. John Mary Vianney and St. Padre Pio were devoted to their role as an alter Christus in the confessional, using that hospital of Divine Mercy to administer the infinite merits of Our Lord’s Most Precious Blood to bring sacramental absolution to those to whom they had preached in blunt terms.

In addition to fidelity, though, there are different ways of expressing courage in the midst of persecutions and sufferings. Some Catholics stood up quite directly to the unjust and illicit dictates of the English Parliament, which had been passed at the urging of King Henry VIII, at the time of the Protestant Revolt in England. Others kept their silence for as long as was possible, as was the case with Saint Thomas More, who discharged his mind publicly only after he had been found guilty on the basis of perjured testimony of denying the supremacy of the king as the head of the Church in England. Some priests in the Elizabethan period, such as St. Edmund Campion, almost dared officials to arrest them as they went to different locales to offer Holy Mass or as they took groups to the Tower of London. Other priests went quietly from house to house to offer the Traditional Mass underground as both the civil and ecclesiastical authorities in England used every sort of pressure imaginable to convince holdout “Romans” to go over to Protestantism and worship in the precusor liturgy of our own Novus Ordo Missae. Still other newly ordained priests came over from France, knowing that they might be able to offer only one Mass in England before they were arrested and executed.

The same thing occurred in France 255 years after the arrest and execution of Saints John Fisher and Thomas More. Some priests simply stood up to the agents of the French Revolution. Others, such as Blessed Father William Chaminade, donned disguises as they went from place to place, much as Blessed Padre Miguel Augustin Pro did in Mexico prior to his execution at the hands of the Masonic revolutionaries in Mexico on November 23, 1927. Ignatius Cardinal Kung, then the Bishop of Shanghai, China, was hauled before a dog-track stadium in his see city in 1956 before thousands of spectators. The Red Chinese authorities expected him to denounce the pope and thus to save himself from arrest. The brave bishop exclaimed the same thing as Blessed Padre Miguel Augustin Pro, “Long live Christ the King,” and was hauled off to spend over thirty years in prison before being released. Oh, yes, there are so many ways for priests to demonstrate their fidelity and courage in the midst of persecutions and sufferings.

Well, many bishops and priests who are faithful to the fullness of the Church’s authentic Tradition have been subjected to a unspeakable form of persecution in the past thirty-five to forty years: treachery from within the highest quarters of the Church herself. Men who have held fast to that which was believed always, everywhere and by everyone prior for over 1,900 years found themselves termed as “disobedient,” “schismatic,” “heretical,” and “disloyal” for their resisting novelties that bore no resemblance to Catholicism and a great deal of resemblance to the very things that were fomented by Martin Luther and John Calvin and Thomas Cranmer, things for which Catholics half a millennium ago shed their blood rather than accept. Many priests who have tried to remain faithful to Tradition within the framework of a diocesan or archdiocesan structure have been sent to psychiatric hospitals or penalized by being removed from their pastorates or by being denied pastorates altogether. Others, though, have faced more severe penalties.

Angelus Press, which is run by the Society of Saint Pius X, put out a book earlier this year, Priest, Where is Thy Mass? Mass, Where is Thy Priest?, which discussed the stories of seventeen priests who had decided to offer only the Traditional Latin Mass and to never again offer the Novus Ordo Missae. One of those priests is my good friend, Father Stephen Zigrang, who offered the Traditional Latin Mass in his [now] former parish of Saint Andrew Church in Channelview, Texas, on June 28-29, 2003, telling his parishioners that he would never again offer the new Mass.

As I reported extensively at this time last year, Father Zigrang was placed on a sixty day leave-of-absence by the Bishop of Galveston-Houston, the Most Reverend Joseph Fiorenza, and told to seek psychological counseling, preferably from Father Benedict Groeschel, C.F.R. Father Zigrang took his two month leave of absence, making a retreat at Saint Thomas Aquinas Seminary in Winona, Minnesota, in early August of last year, returning to the Houston area to take up residence in the Society’s Queen of Angels Chapel in Dickinson, Texas. Bishop Fiorenza met with Father Zigrang in early September, seeming at the time to let him stay for a year with the Society while the diocese continued to pay his health insurance premiums. Within days of that early September meeting, however, Fiorenza was threatening to suspend Father Zigrang by the beginning of October if he did not vacate Queen of Angels and return to a diocesan assignment.

October of 2003 came and went. Father Zigrang heard no word from Bishop Fiorenza or the chancery office until he received the following letter, dated Jun 10, 2004:

Dear Father Zigrang:

Once more I appeal to you to cease your association with the Society of St. Pius X and return to your responsibilities as a priest of the Diocese of Galveston-Houston

Your continued association with a schismatic group which has severed communion with the Holy Father is confusing and a scandal to many of Christ’s faithful. You are well aware that without appropriate jurisdiction the marriages witnessed and confessions heard by the priests of the St. Society of St. Paul X are invalid and people are being lead to believe otherwise. You are also aware that the Holy See has asked the faithful not to attend Masses celebrated in the Chapels of the Society of St. Pius X.

I plead with you to return by July 1, 2004, to the presbyterate of the Diocese of Galveston-Houston and receive a priestly assignment from me. This letter serves as a penal precept (c. 1319) and is a final canonical warning (c. 1347.1). If I do not hear from you by June 30, 2004, I will impose a just penalty for disobeying a legitimate precept (c. 1371.2). The just penalty may include suspension (c. 133.1), nn 1-2: prohibition of all acts of the power of orders and governance.

I offer this final warning after consultation with the Holy See and will proceed to impose a penalty if you persist in disobedience to a legitimate precept. It is my fervent hope and constant prayer that you not remain out of union with the Holy Father.

Fraternally in Christ,

Joseph A. Fiorenza, Bishop of Galveston-Houston

Reverend R. Troy Gately, Vice Chancellor

Overlooking Bishop Fiorenza’s John Kerry-like gaffe in terming the Society of Saint Pius X the “St. Society of St. Paul X,” the letter reproduced above makes the erroneous assertion that the Society of Saint Pius X is in schism and that they are not in communion with the Holy Father. A series of articles in The Remnant has dealt with this very issue at great length. Fiorenza’s contentions that the marriages witnessed and the confessions heard by the Society of Saint Pius X are invalid also flies in the face of the fact that the Holy See “regularized” the Society of Saint John Mary Vianney in Campos, Brazil, without demanding the convalidation of the marriages their priests had witnesses nor asking that confessions be re-heard. The glaring inconsistency of the canonical rhetoric of Vatican functionaries and their actual practices continues to be lost on Bishop Fiorenza.

Father Zigrang did not respond to Bishop Fiorenza’s June 10 letter. He received another letter, dated July 2, 2004, the contents of which are so explosive as to contain implications for the state of the Church far beyond the case of Father Zigrang and far beyond the boundaries of the Diocese of Galveston-Houston:

Dear Father Zigrang:

With great sadness I inform you that, effective immediately, you are suspended from the celebration of all sacraments, the exercise of governance and all rights attached to the office of pastor (Canon 1333.1, nn 1-2-3).

This action is taken after appropriate canonical warnings (canon 1347) and failure to obey my specific directive that you cease the affiliation with the schismatic Society of St. Pius X and accept an assignment to serve as a priest of the Diocese of Galveston-Houston (Canon 1371.2).

I want to repeat what I have said to you in person and in the written canonical warnings, that I prayerfully urge you to not break communion with the Holy Father and cease to be associated with the schism which rejects the liciety of the Novus Ordo Mass, often affirmed by Pope John Paul II. This schism also calls into question the teachings of the Second Vatican Council regarding ecumenism and the enduring validity of the Old Testament covenant God established with the people of Israel.

Your return to full union with the Church and to the acceptance of an assignment to priestly ministry in the Diocese of Galveston-Houston will be joyfully received as an answer to prayer. May the Holy Spirit lead and guide you to renew the promise of obedience you made on the day of your ordination.

Fraternally in Christ,

Most Reverend Joseph A. Fiorenza Bishop of Galveston-Houston

Reverend Monsignor Frank H. Rossi Chancellor

cc: His Eminence, Cardinal Dario Castrillon Hoyos, Commissio Ecclesia Dei

Bishop Fiorenza’s July 2, 2004, letter is riddled with errors.

First, The Society of Saint Pius X does not reject the liciety of the Novus Ordo Missae. Its founder, the late Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, criticized the nature of the Novus Ordo and pointed out its inherent harm. That is far different from saying that the Novus Ordo is always and in all instances invalid. Is Bishop Fiorenza claiming that any criticism of the Novus Ordo and efforts to demonstrate how it is a radical departure from Tradition are schismatic acts? Is Father Romano Thommasi, for example, to be taken to task for writing scholarly articles, based on the very minutes of the Consilium, about how Archbishop Annibale Bugnini lied about the true origin of the some constituent elements of the Novus Ordo?

Second, the Society is not, as noted above, in schism, at least not as that phrase was defined by the First Vatican Council. The Society recognizes that the See of Peter is occupied at present by Pope John Paul II. Its priests pray for the Holy Father and for the local bishop in the Canon of the Mass. The Society can be said to be disobedient to the Holy Father’s unjust edicts and commands. The Society of Saint Pius X is not in schism.

Third, Bishop Fiorenza seems to be stating that ecumenism is a de fide dogma of the Catholic Church from which no Catholic may legitimately dissent. If this is his contention, it is he who is grave error. Ecumenism is a pastoral novelty that was specifically condemned by every Pope prior to 1958. Pope Pius XI did so with particular eloquence in Mortalium Animos in 1928. Novelties that are not consonant with the authentic Tradition of the Church bind no one under penalty of sin, no less binds a priest under penalty of canonical suspension. A rejection of ecumenism constitutes in no way a schismatic act.

Fourth, Bishop Fiorenza’s assertion that the “Old Testament covenant God established with the people of Israel” is enduringly valid is itself heretical. No human being can be saved by a belief in the Mosaic Covenant, which was superceded in its entirety when the curtain was torn in two in the Temple on Good Friday at the moment Our Lord had breathed His last on the Holy Cross. It is a fundamental act of fidelity to the truths of the Holy Faith to resist and to denounce the heretical contention, made in person by Bishop Fiorenza to Father Zigrang last year, that Jews are saved by the Mosaic Covenant. Were the Apostles, including the first pope, Saint Peter, wrong to try to convert the Jews? Was Our Lord joking when He said that a person had no life in him if he did not eat of His Body and drink of His Blood?

Fifth, Bishop Fiorenza has failed repeatedly to take into account Father Zigrang’s aboslute rights under Quo Primum to offer the Immemorial Mass of Tradition without any episcopal approval:

Furthermore, by these presents [this law], in virtue of Our Apostolic authority, We grant and concede in perpetuity that, for the chanting or reading of the Mass in any church whatsoever, this Missal is hereafter to be followed absolutely, without any scruple of conscience or fear of incurring any penalty, judgment, or censure, and may freely and lawfully be used. Nor are superiors, administrators, canons, chaplains, and other secular priests, or religious, of whatever order or by whatever title designated, obliged to celebrate the Mass otherwise than as enjoined by Us.

We likewise declare and ordain that no one whosoever is to be forced to alter this Missal, and that this present document cannot be revoked or modified, but remain always valid and retain its full force–notwithstanding the previous constitutions and decrees of the Holy See, as well as any general or special constitutions or edicts of provincial or synodal councils, and notwithstanding the practice and custom of the aforesaid churches, established by long and immemoial prescription–except, however, if of more than two hundred years’ standing. Therefore, no one whosoever is permitted to alter this letter or heedlessly to venture to go contrary to this notice of Our permission., statute, ordinance, command, precept, grant, indult, declaration, will, decree, and prohibition. Should anyone, however, presume to commit such an act, he should know that he will incur the wrath of Almighty God and of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul.

It is apparently the case that Bishop Fiorenza received a “green light,” if you will, to act against Father Zigrang from Dario Cardinal Castrillion Hoyos, who is both the Prefect of the Congregation for the Clergy and the President of Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei, to whom a copy of the July 2, 2004, suspension letter was sent. Father Zigrang surmises that Bishop Fiorenza brought up the issue of his case during the bishops’ ad limina apostolorum visit in Rome recently. Father believes that Cardinal Hoyos wants to send a signal to priests who might be tempted to follow his lead that Rome will let bishops crack down on them without mercy and without so much as an acknowledgment that Quo Primum actually means what it says. Whether or not the specific “schismatic” acts Father Zigrang is alleged to have committed by being associated with the Society of Saint Pius X at Queen of Angels Church in Dickinson, Texas, were outlined to Cardinal Hoyos by Bishop Fiorenza remains to be seen.

Naturally, the grounds on which Bishop Fiorenza suspended Father Zigrang are beyond the sublime. As my dear wife Sharon noted, “Doesn’t Bishop Fiorenza have a better canon lawyer on his staff than the one who advised him on the grounds of suspending Father Zigrang.” Indeed.

The very fact that Fiorenza could make these incredible claims and believes that he has a good chance of prevailing in Rome speaks volumes about the state of the Church in her human elements at present. Will Rome let the bishops govern unjustly and make erroneous assertions about “schism” as well as heretical claims (that a priest must accept that Jews are saved by the Mosaic Covenant and that ecumenism is a matter of de fide doctrine) with its full assent and approval? Will Rome countenance the same sort of misuse of power by local bishops upon traditional priests in the Twenty-first Century that was visited upon “Romans” by the civil state and the Anglican “church” in England from 1534 to 1729? The answers to these questions are probably self-evident. Putting them down in black and white, though, might help priests who are looking to Rome for some canonical protection for the Traditional Latin Mass to come to realize that they wait in vain for help from the Holy See, where the Vicar of Christ occupies himself at present with the writing of a book about existentialism!

There will be further updates on this matter as events warrant. Father Zigrang is weighing his options as to how to respond to the allegations contained in Bishop Fiorenza’s letter of suspension, understanding that the answers provided by the Holy See will have implications of obviously tremendous gravity. Given the intellectual dishonesty that exists in Rome at present, Father Zigrang’s case may only be decided on the technical grounds of “obedience” to his bishop, ignoring all of the other issues, including the rights of all priests under Quo Primum offer the Traditional Latin Mass without approval and their rights to never be forced to offer Holy Mass according to any other form.

To force Rome to act on what it might otherwise avoid, perhaps it might be wise for someone to bring a canonical denunciation of Bishop Fiorenza for his contentions about ecumenism and the “enduring validity” of the Mosaic Covenant, spelling out in chapter and verse how these things have been condemned in the history of the Church. Then again, Fiorenza could “defend” himself by simply pointing to the Pope himself, which is precisely why this matter has such grave implications. This matter is certain to be explored in great detail in the weeks and months ahead by competent canonists and by theologians who understand the authentic Tradition of the Catholic Church.

Father Zigrang noted the following in an e-mail to me dated July 14, 2004:

I examined canon 1371.2 (the canon that the Bishop says warrants my suspension), checking a good commentary, the disobedience of an Ordinary's legitimate precept may warrant a just penalty but not weighty enough to warrant a censure (e.g. suspension). I think this point may have been missed by the Bishop's hired canon lawyer, when the Bishop was weighing his options about what to do with one of his wayward priests. As I said to you before, the Bishop has a history of not suspending priests, even those who commit crimes beyond mere disobedience. Although lately I've been told he recently suspended a priest who attempted marriage with one of his parishioners. This was done about the time my suspension was in the works.

Our Lady, Queen of the Angels, pray for Father Zigrang.

Our Lady, Help of Christians, pray for all priests in Father Zigrang’s situation so that they will be aided by their seeking refuge in you in their time of persecution and trial.


TOPICS: Catholic; Current Events; Ecumenism; Moral Issues; Religion & Politics; Worship
KEYWORDS: catholic; catholiclist; crisis
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 41-6061-8081-100 ... 901-902 next last
To: sinkspur

He has the right to say the Tridentine Mass. If his bishop denies him this right, the bishop is the disobedient one, not the priest, since Quo Primum has never been abrogated. Fr. Z is on very firm legal ground.


61 posted on 07/15/2004 10:15:51 PM PDT by ultima ratio
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: GirlShortstop
"Schizzies" huh.

You realize that this guy was sent for "psychlogical counseling"?

Are you married? If so, I pity your husband, I'd have to buy earplugs. You are hard to listen to woman.

62 posted on 07/15/2004 10:19:38 PM PDT by AAABEST (Lord have mercy on us)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 49 | View Replies]

To: gbcdoj

You have an exaggerated sense of denial.

Many of you will wake up far too late. I'm reminded of that image from a play I read back in high school (The Glass Menagerie?) where one of the characters sits alone in a room with a music box playing having lost his or her mind. Some posters here will be in the same situation once they realize the house of cards they supported has fallen.


63 posted on 07/15/2004 10:21:40 PM PDT by Canticle_of_Deborah
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 55 | View Replies]

To: AAABEST
You realize that this guy was sent for "psychlogical counseling"?

I'm sorry to hear that bestie, I hope you are feeling better.
64 posted on 07/15/2004 10:23:01 PM PDT by GirlShortstop (« O sublime humility! That the Lord... should humble Himself like this... »)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 62 | View Replies]

To: Saint Athanasius

The Bishop was disobedient to the Faith. He should be forced to defend his decision by canon law. He will lose.


65 posted on 07/15/2004 10:23:02 PM PDT by Canticle_of_Deborah
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 57 | View Replies]

To: AAABEST

Did I say those guys were obedient?

I will let Our Savior judge my mind and soul, not you AAABEST.

I pray that he has mercy on both of us... because we are more like the fags, heretics, apostates, leftists and worshippers of false Gods than we are to our Savior...

You SSPXers need to realize this... you are sinners and you are not better than any other person...you are not the judge of anyone's heart... you don't know... so stop being judge, jury and executioner of everyone else...

I am loyal to Christ and His Church who JPII is his vicar... and I will not let SSPXers attack her as if she was the whore of Babylon.


66 posted on 07/15/2004 10:24:45 PM PDT by Saint Athanasius ("I've noticed that everyone who is for abortion has already been born." - Ronald Reagan)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 60 | View Replies]

To: AAABEST

It's a fruit of the N.O.

Be not afraid.


67 posted on 07/15/2004 10:25:15 PM PDT by Canticle_of_Deborah
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 62 | View Replies]

To: Saint Athanasius
and I will not let SSPXers attack her as if she was the whore of Babylon.

Modernism may be the whore of Babylon, so don't be so sure.

68 posted on 07/15/2004 10:26:58 PM PDT by Canticle_of_Deborah
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 66 | View Replies]

To: AAABEST; GirlShortstop

AAABEST,

even if SSPX was true, I would not any part of it with attitudes like that...

you definitely need to re-read 1 Corinthians 13!


69 posted on 07/15/2004 10:27:55 PM PDT by Saint Athanasius ("I've noticed that everyone who is for abortion has already been born." - Ronald Reagan)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 62 | View Replies]

To: AAABEST; Religion Mod; Admin Moderator; JimRobonson; ultima ratio; Land of the Irish

"I see sinkspurt the mystery deacon is up to his old stalking games again. I'm getting his oddball FReepmails ( as have so many others) with the usual ominous warnings that coincide with my posts being pulled. "

Yeah, those private mails are pretty creepy, aren't they? They have something of the obscene phone call about them.

It's also quite unsettling the way one can be suspended for something one didn't do, and no one in management will even lean over from Olympus to discuss it.


70 posted on 07/15/2004 10:29:00 PM PDT by dsc
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 58 | View Replies]

To: Canticle_of_Deborah

According to who? You...

Father Zigrang was disobedient... and the Bishop would win.

You might not like the fact that the Bishop has not given the indult (except to two parishes), but saying the Latin Mass without his permission is disobedience.


71 posted on 07/15/2004 10:32:20 PM PDT by Saint Athanasius ("I've noticed that everyone who is for abortion has already been born." - Ronald Reagan)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 65 | View Replies]

To: ultima ratio
Quo Primum has never been abrogated. Fr. Z is on very firm legal ground.

Pope ultima has spoken. Even Michael Davies admits that Quo Primum was (likely) obrogated by Missale Romanum. Any right to say the 1962 Missal today would come from immemorial custom.

We have no official prohibition and I think that the Pope would never establish an official prohibition not because of the words of Pius V, who said this was a Mass forever. Those words of Pius V were common for an important decision of the Pope. He always said, "This is valid forever." But this was not a theological, it was not a dogmatic statement, this decree of the Pope promulgting his Tridentine Mass order. And so it could be changed by his successors....

In Italian, they say that one pope gives the bull and another takes the bull again, that is, he can change the disposition of his predecessor...

So what about a bishop forbidding the Mass in the case of a priest or a whole dioceses? You must realize that a bishop is the only one who has responsibility for his dioceses....Bishops have no jurisdiction over their collegues. A bishop in his dioceses, for his dioceses and his subjects, can find the arguments to forbid it. He can say, "This is disturbing to the peace in the dioceses."

It is necessary to notice that the privilege is given to the bishops, not the faithful. So a bishop can use the privilege or not. (Alfons Cardinal Stickler, Interview in Latin Mass Magazine Summer 1995)


72 posted on 07/15/2004 10:33:37 PM PDT by gbcdoj (No one doubts ... that the holy and most blessed Peter ... lives in his successors, and judges.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 61 | View Replies]

To: Saint Athanasius

Quo Primum guaranteed priests the right to say the Traditional Mass. It has never been abrogated. The Bishop will lose.

Bishops are not God. Obedience to them is not absolute. One must obey the Faith first.


73 posted on 07/15/2004 10:34:23 PM PDT by Canticle_of_Deborah
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 71 | View Replies]

To: gbcdoj

Same old same old. I'm even weary of correcting you, but correct you I must. Here is a post I sent to Black Elk two days ago--it applies to your rigid way of thinking as well:

You state Ecclesia is authoritative. Fine. The only problem is that it is in direct conflict with a more authoritative document--Canon Law. Canon 1323 allows for a subject to disobey if he fears a state of necessity. It says nothing about whether such a state must exist or not. The canon is only concerned with the interior state of the subject and how he perceives a situation. If said subject sincerely believed there was a state of necessity which forced him to disobey, no penalty is incurred according to canon 1323. The Archbishop evoked the canon--legally and honestly.

But this is not all. Not only does a canon allow for disobedience under certain conditions, but another canon stated that even if the individual were WRONG about such a state of necessity, as long as he sincerely believed there was an emergency, no penalty is incurred. How much clearer can this be? It was not up to the Pope to decide what was in the Archbishop's mind when he "disobeyed", it was the Archbishop's call, not the Pope's.

If the Pope had wanted to prove that the Archbishop was culpable, he ought not to have relied on a latae sententiae decree, but on a formal tribunal, the traditional route for disciplining high churchmen. Such a tribunal would have called witnesses, allowed for a full airing of the dispute, and rendered a fair-and-square verdict, ferendae sententiae. He didn't do this--probably because this would have given the Archbishop the right to defend himself. It would have meant bringing up embarrassing conflicts regarding matters of faith in which the papacy was at loggerheads with the Church's own Tradition. So the Pope did an end-run and used the pretext of an automatic latae sententiae to falsely charge the Archbishop with excommunication and schism. \

As for what the Pontiff owes me or doesn't owe me--that is a ridiculous point to bring up. I am not important--but the faith itself is. The Pope owes explanations not to me, but to millions like myself who expect more from a pope than poetry. We expect a vigorous defense of the traditional faith--not novelties that have nothing to do with the faith. We want faith-affirming Masses and clearly Catholic catechesis for our children. We want bishops who are devout and orthodox not corrupt and apostate. It is all well and good that he is so worried about Buddhists and Jews and Muslims. But his own Catholic sheep are starving. He needs to follow Christ's injunction to feed his lambs and his sheep before he attends to the Hindus.



74 posted on 07/15/2004 10:36:26 PM PDT by ultima ratio
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: dsc; AAABEST; sinkspur
Yeah, those private mails are pretty creepy, aren't they? They have something of the obscene phone call about them.

Hey! How come I never got one?

75 posted on 07/15/2004 10:38:46 PM PDT by TradicalRC (From big government conservatives, good Lord deliver us.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 70 | View Replies]

To: gbcdoj

Wrong again. He went to the SSPX because he recognized in them the true Catholic faith.


76 posted on 07/15/2004 10:39:10 PM PDT by ultima ratio
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: gbcdoj

The Novus Ordo IS a sacrilege. It ignores the Real Presence and Propitiatory sacrifice. It is an abomination that must be destroyed for the Church to be well again.


77 posted on 07/15/2004 10:42:56 PM PDT by ultima ratio
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: ultima ratio
The Archbishop evoked the canon--legally and honestly.

He invoked it after multiple warnings from the Apostolic See that there was no state of necessity. As the PCILT said, there can hardly be ignorance in such a situation.

he ought not to have relied on a latae sententiae decree, but on a formal tribunal, the traditional route for disciplining high churchmen.

And I pointed out that there is plenty of precedent for disciplining high churchmen as schismatic without a trial, and that the Apostolic See generally uses latae sententiae excommunications - this wasn't a special case for Msgr. Lefebvre.

Msgr. Lefebvre was stubborn because of his mistakes on various doctrines, especially religious liberty, in which he effectively rejected Pius XII's teaching in "Ci Riesce". At the end, he couldn't even accept

Moreover, I adhere with religious submission of will and intellect to the teachings which either the Roman pontiff or the College of Bishops enunciate when they exercise their authentic Magisterium, even if they do not intend to proclaim these teachings by a definitive act.
insisting that a clause needed to be added to allow for private judgment. Sola Traditio!

Dollinger always considered himself a Catholic, too.

78 posted on 07/15/2004 10:49:54 PM PDT by gbcdoj (No one doubts ... that the holy and most blessed Peter ... lives in his successors, and judges.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 74 | View Replies]

To: St.Chuck

Funny how everybody you disagree with is schismatic. In fact, they are Catholics. That you don't recognize this speaks to the fact that we've really got two different religions, both claiming to be Catholic. One is pushed by a heterodox pope enamored of novelties, the other has two thousand years of popes, saints, councils, doctrines and practice behind it. Which one was founded by Christ, do you suppose?


79 posted on 07/15/2004 10:50:32 PM PDT by ultima ratio
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: ultima ratio
The Novus Ordo IS a sacrilege. It ignores the Real Presence and Propitiatory sacrifice.

These silly claims concerning the Novus Ordo have been refuted time and time again. When confronted with texts from the Missal and GIRM which affirm those two dogmas, you just ignore them.

At the anamnesis or memorial, the priest, addressing God in the name of all the people, offers in thanksgiving the holy and living sacrifice: the Church's offering and the Victim whose death has reconciled us with God. The priest also prays that the body and blood of Christ may be a sacrifice acceptable to the Father, bringing salvation to the whole world. In this new Missal, then, the Church's rule of prayer corresponds to its constant rule of faith. This rule of faith instructs us that the sacrifice of the cross and its sacramental renewal in the Mass, which Christ instituted at the Last Supper and commanded his apostles to do in his memory, are one and the same, differing only in the manner of offering and that consequently the Mass is at once a sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving, of reconciliation and expiation ... The Mass does this not only by means of the very words of consecration, by which Christ becomes present through transubstantiation, but also by that spirit and expression of reverence and adoration in which the eucharistic liturgy is carried out. For the same reason the Christian people are invited in Holy Week on Holy Thursday and on the solemnity of Corpus Christi to honor this wonderful sacrament in a special way by their adoration. (GIRM 2-3)
Quam oblationem tu, Deus, in omnibus, quaesumus, benedictam, adscriptam, ratam, rationabilem, acceptabilemquw facere digneris: ut nobis Corpus et Sanguis fiat dilectissimi Filii tui, Domini nostri Iesu Christi.

Unde et memores, Domine, nos servi tui, sed et plebs tua sancta, eiusdem Christi, Filii Tui, Domini nostri, tam beatae passionis, necnon et ab inferis resurrectionis, sed et in caelos gloriosae ascensionis: offerimus praeclarae maiestati tuae de tuis donis ac datis hostiam puram, hostiam sanctam, hostiam immaculatam, Panem sanctam vitae aeternae et Calicem salutis perpetuae.

Supra quae propitio ac sereno vultu respicere digneris: et accepta habere, siculti accepta habere dignatus es munera pueri tui iusti Abel, et sacrificium Patriarchae nostri Abrahae, et quod tibi obtulit summus sacerdos tuus Melchisedech, sanctum sacrificium, immaculatam hostiam. (From EP I)

Haec ergo dona, quaesumus, Spiritus tui rore sanctifica, ut nobis Corpus et + Sanguis fiant Domini nostri Iesu Christi.

Memores igitur mortis et resurrectionis eius, tibi, Domine, panem vitae et calicem salutis afferimus, gratias agentes quia nos dignos habuisti astare coram te et tibi ministrare. (From EP II)

Supplices ergo te, Domine, deprecamur, ut haec munera, quae tibi sacranda detulimus, eodem Spiritu sanctificare digneris, ut Corpus et + Sanguis fiant Filii tui Domini nostri Iesu Christi, cuius mandato haec mysteria celebramus.

Memores igitur, Domine, eiusdem Filii tui salutiferae passionis necnon mirabilis resurrectionis et ascensionis in caelum, sed et praestolantes alterum eius adventum, offerimus tibi, gratias referentes, hoc sacrificium vivum et sanctum.

Respice, quaesumus, in oblationem Ecclesiae tuae et, agnoscens Hostiam, cuius voluisti immolatione placari, concede, ut qui Corpore et Sanguine Filii tui reficimur, Spiritu eius Sancto repleti, unum corpus et unus spiritus inveniamur in Christo. (From EP III)

Quaesumus igitur, Domine, ut idem Spiritus Sanctus haec munera sanctificare dignetur, ut Corpus et + Sanguis fiant Domini nostri Iesu Christi ad hoc magnum mysterium celebrandum, quod ipse nobis reliquit in foedus aeternum.

Unde et nos, Domine, redemtionis nostrae memoriale nunc celebrantes, mortem Christi eiusque descensum ad inferos recolimus, eius resurrectionem et ascensionem ad tuam dexteram profitemur, et, exspectantes ipsius adventum in gloria, offerimus tibi eius Corpus et Sanguinem, sacrificium tibi acceptabile et toti mundo salutare.

Respice, Domine, in Hostiam, quam Ecclesiae tuae ipse parasti, et concede benignus omnibus qui ex hoc uno pane participabunt et calice, ut, in unum corpus a Sancto Spiritu congregati, in Christo hostia viva perficiantur, ad laudem gloriae tuae. (From EP IV)


80 posted on 07/15/2004 10:57:14 PM PDT by gbcdoj (No one doubts ... that the holy and most blessed Peter ... lives in his successors, and judges.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 77 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 41-6061-8081-100 ... 901-902 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson