Archbishop Flynn Bans Legionaries of Christ

Regain Network via Catholic World News ^ | 12/16/04

[marshmallow]

The above link takes you to a PDF document of Flynn's letters to the Legion.

The site is having bandwidth problems so access may not be immediate.

[marshmallow]

Apologies if this is old news. I came upon the link through today's Catholic World News

Thought it interesting in light of Flynn's recent blather about accepting the "Rainbow Sash" wearers at Communion.

[BobCNY]

I read the PDF'ed letters that Bp. Flynn had written to the LC, but there were very obscure and didn't make any specific charges except for the one on opennes and unity which maybe the LC were caught teaching the Catechism in his diocese on topics like homosexuality.

[nickcarraway]

Maybe it will be like Mexico all over again for the Legionaries...

[Pyro7480]

I think there is something definitely not being mentioned here.

[u57896]

This sounds like our beloved archbishop.
He also recently refused to grant permission to any of the Indult attendees from having their children confirmed in Wausau Wisconsin in the traditional rite.

"The walls of hell are lined with the skulls of bishops."
Saint John of the Cross

[nevergore]

My kid's go to a Legionaries School in Atlanta....

The Legion priests are great guys...super concerned with the kid's spiritual formation....

They do tend to be not very forthcoming in their approach but will openly answer questions when asked. This gives the appearance of being secretive when they are really not.

Regum Christi is the lay movement....Very conservative and completely in support of the Legionaries. Definitely not diocesan focused.

What happened to the Legionaries in Mexico?

NeverGore

[AAABEST]

Flynn is a live one. It's one thing after the next with him inspiring nostalgic warm and fuzzies for the inquisition. Gotta love his handling of the Rainbow Sash sodomites.

Archbishop Flynn speaks to Vatican on Rainbow Sash

[Pyro7480]

I thought a different St. John, St. John Chrysostom, said that, and the full quote is "The road to hell is paved with the skulls of bad priests, and erring bishops are its lampposts."

[charliemarlow]

So any of you folks in his diocese - make sure you don't support him financially. Give your money to worthy
causes.
Don't think you will be able to persuade him if only you get the chance.
There is no reasoning with these people.

[Romulus]

Burning brightly.

[u57896]

I have found this quote (or close variations) attributed to about 10 different Catholic saints.

[Pyro7480]

I think that's one of the quotes where the original author has been lost.

[u57896]

If I would approach him with a nice rainbow sash I am certain he would cater to my every whim......

[hispanichoosier]

Sometimes, groups like the People of Praise, Regnum Christi, and Opus Dei attract active followers, thereby draining the "pool" of committed people from the local diocese. Archbishop Flynn may be nervous about that.

Ironically, the Legionaries of Christ (Regnum Christi's counterpart) just had 59 new priests ordained in Rome (see http://www.legionariesofchrist.org/eng/fotogaleria/fotogaleria.phtml?id=620), whereas the Archdiocese of St. Paul/Minneapolis only had 15 this year (see http://www.thecatholicspirit.com/archives.php?article=3150). I think the Legionaries must be doing something right!

[NYer]

Archbishop Flynn Bans Legionaries of Christ - but, allows Rainbow Sashers (the Gay, Lesbian, Bi-Sexual and TransgenderCatholics). What's wrong with this picture?

From Catholic News Service

Archbishop speaks to Vatican officials about Rainbow Sash protests

By John Thavis
Catholic News Service

ROME (CNS) -- Archbishop Harry J. Flynn of Minneapolis-St. Paul spoke to Vatican officials about gay rights proponents wearing rainbow sashes to Mass and receiving Communion.

Unlike some other bishops across the country, Archbishop Flynn has allowed Communion to be given to members of the group known as Rainbow Sash. That has prompted criticism by some Catholics in his archdiocese, and at one Mass a group of lay people tried to block the aisles to prevent sash-wearers from receiving Communion.

Archbishop Flynn said he discussed the issue in a private meeting in early December with Cardinal Francis Arinze, head of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Sacraments.

He said Cardinal Arinze agreed that it was a complex problem requiring clear teaching and pastoral sensitivity. The archbishop said he was not asked to change his policy.

"I got the clear understanding that this is recognized as a very complex pastoral issue which must constantly be looked at in all its ramifications," Archbishop Flynn said in an interview in mid-December.

"It needs to be handled prayerfully and reflectively," he said.

"There was encouragement to keep on teaching and also to be aware of the forces everywhere, including in the United States, that are against the long tradition of the teaching of the church," he said.

Archbishop Flynn said it was recognized that U.S. bishops have come to different conclusions about how to respond to Rainbow Sash members who present themselves for Communion, but he said he got no sense that the Vatican was pushing for a single policy on this.

"We all stand very strong in our teaching concerning human sexuality, and what is right and what is wrong, and the teaching of the church concerning homosexuality, the teaching of the church concerning marriage between one man and one woman," he said.

"Then as you step away from the strong articulation of the teachings, you get into the pastoral practice of what do you do in some of these very difficult and challenging situations," he said.

He said that "sometimes we don't come to the same conclusion about how to handle it."

The church teaches that homosexual acts are contrary to natural law and that the homosexual inclination is "objectively disordered." It also teaches that homosexuals must be accepted with love and respect and that they not be discriminated against.

Some bishops, like Cardinal Francis E. George of Chicago, have denied the Eucharist to Rainbow Sash members on the grounds that they were using the Eucharist to make a political statement against church teaching.

Archbishop Flynn said sash-wearers would not be denied Communion because members of the movement had assured him in writing that their presence was not in protest of church teachings.

Like several other bishops from the Midwestern group on their "ad limina" visits, required of heads of dioceses every five years, Archbishop Flynn said his meetings with Vatican offices were "very positive exchanges."

On liturgical matters, he said, the bishops were able to report on "the faithfulness of God's people in the United States and the great love they have for the liturgy."

He said the bishops told the Vatican they have not experienced anything in their dioceses that would indicate a lack of faith on the part of the church community regarding the liturgy.

[Knitting A Conundrum]

All I can say is that I am glad I'm not going to be in some Bishop's shoes when they have to give the final account of what they have done...

[vox_freedom]

The picture here tells the story as to how/why Archb. Flynn would have the temerity to ban the Legionnaires of Christ. He accepts the rainbow sashers yet disparages the traditionalists. Gee, I wonder how many Tridentine Masses (according to the 1962 Missal) he allows in his diocese? Answer: -0-

[american colleen]

Here's a paragraph from the letter of Bishop Flynn:

"I feel very strongly that any group of religious who minister within this local Church needs to do so in a way which promotes unity and cooperation. Rather than experiencing such a spirit, our pastors continue to sense that a "parallel Church" is being encouraged, one that separates persons from the local parish and archdiocese, and creates competing ventures."

Then I find the following snippet of an autobiographical article by a Legionnaire priest:

"One day shortly thereafter His Excellency Harry Flynn, current Archbishop of St. Paul-Minneapolis, who back then was the bishop of my diocese in Louisiana and whom I have always considered a great friend, called me and told me that we needed to chat. During our little interview he suggested that I take a look at a religious order, one I had never heard of before, called the Legion of Christ. He didn´t want to lose me but he thought that the religious life might be for me and that, in the end, we all work for the same Boss. I said, "of course", to be courteous but I hadn´t the slightest intention of doing so. The next day I got a phone call that gave my life quite a spin. It was from the vocation director of the Legionaries of Christ. After a few minutes of stunned silence he explained that he had received my name from a "friend" who had said that I was interested in a Legionary vocation. That summer I went to the Candidacy program and entered the Novitiate in the fall."

"Two memories really stand out from the day of my ordination: First, the presence of Archbishop Harry Flynn, who had sent me to the Legion years before. It was he who anointed my hands with the holy chrism on that memorable day."

From the NCRegister, quoting Archbishop Flynn:

When Neil left the diocesan seminary, Archbishop Flynn asked him to stay in touch, which he did, and encouraged him to look into the priesthood with a religious order, particularly the Legionaries. “It was a magnificent ordination, and the Legionaries came in from all over the world to participate in it,” Archbishop Flynn wrote in his archdiocesan paper, The Catholic Spirit. “I think there were more than 1,000 staying in the seminary in which I resided while in Rome.

So what happened?

[marshmallow]

I also read that account on the Legionaries of Christ web site. Here's my .02.

Archbishop Flynn, like many bishops, does the bidding of the more vocal priests in his diocese. Note the key words in Flynn's letter; Rather than experiencing such a spirit, our pastors continue to sense that a "parallel Church" is being encouraged,. "Our pastors". Flynn has been put up to this by his priests. Perhaps "threatened" is a better word.

The diocesan priests (many of them), see the LoC as competition. They see it as taking away $$ from their collection baskets and taking away personnel from their parishes. In a word, they're jealous.

So rather than learning from the LoC, getting their own acts together and giving their congregations more solid food, they tell the bishop to toss the LoC.

[american colleen]

I tend to agree with you, sadly. What a state of affairs when a Catholic bishop betrays even his own beliefs... he must have thought pretty highly of the Legionaries... recommending a young man to them and also personally attending the Legionaries ordination in Rome.

It's really sickening, when you think of it. But apparently Bishop Flynn does not want to be grouped in with the likes of those pre-Vatican, close minded bishops like Bruskewicz, Burke, Myers and others like them. Too much heat to do the right thing.

Here's an interesting link from Catholic Answers on the "LEGIONARIES OF CHRIST CONTROVERSY"

[saradippity]

I remember when archbishop Flynn was first installed and everyone was quite happy. I think that the roach that preceded him was quite a heretic. Things went along,improvements seemed to occur and Human Life International scheduled their huge international conference for that city. Pro-life Catholics were elated,very busy and pleased that the conference was going to be very well attended. The Mass was to be celebrated in the Cathedral and archbishop Flynn was to be the celebrant. Excitement was in the air and contagious.

At the time the founder of HLI,Father Paul Marx,was the co-leader of the group. HLI sent out the most informative newsletter,reporting what was happening around the world,the newsletter was very orthodox and I looked forward to receiving it regularly. It seemed like things were looking up for the pro-life movement. and orthodox Catholics.

Several days before the conference a sad and weird incident ocurred. Abp Flynn accused Father Marx of being an anti-semite. This calumnious charge was based on a line in Father Marx autobiography wherein he stated that he was at a loss to explain how secular Jews could deviate so far from "good". He said they were very involved in abortion and porn and other endeavors that were very destructive to family and society. It was something that certainly had been noted and commented on by many viewers of the passing scene. Abp Flynn refused to offer the Mass and I believe may have said they couldn't use the Cathedral but I am not sure. Whatever,it was a real dampener to the conference and attendees. Very shocking and disgusting.

It was noted by some reporters that the morning of the announcement Flynn had met with some important personages who told him how the cow ate the cabbage,evidently. Flynn has been a "weak sister" bishop ever since.

Colleen,he made my list of bad bishops after at least threemore inexplicable actions that were not Catholic.!! I would really like to know who these important people were. For all I know it could have been the St.Paul/Minneapolis Water Department,telling him the Church hadn't paid the water bill and the water was going to be turned off.

I wonder if anyone has more information on this incident which seems to have triggered Flynn's descent. The article on the Legionary confirms that he was, at one time,a Catholic Bishop.

[american colleen]

Thanks, sara. Of course I hadn't heard about the story you relate (being newish on the 'it's a big world out there' front) and so I appreciate you relating it to us.

Found this from HLI as well as this one where Flynn tells his priests to boycott the HLI Mass - both detailing the event you speak of - something smells bad and it seems like there are quite a few people in Archbishop Flynn's chancery who are suspect - but Archbishop Flynn is a much smarter man than I am and so there is no excuse for his actions, now with the Legionaries and then with HLI.

Looks like the culprit was once again, a nun. This story is amazing, especially since Father Richard John Neuhaus and Father John Hardon literally begged Archbishop Flynn to reconsider his stance:

HLI Conference Targets ‘Culture of Death’

By James Cline
Special to the HERALD

MINNEAPOLIS — Human Life International (HLI) featured a broad array of pro-life leaders and moral philosophers at its 16th annual world conference in Minneapolis last weekend. Over 2,000 delegates from 30 countries converged on the Twin Cities to forge new strategies for instilling in their families, parishes, and schools a greater reverence for all human life.

"A dark night has already begun to descend on our planet," proclaimed Bishop Fabian Bruskewitz of Lincoln, Neb., "and unless there is a moral reinvigoration and rebirth... I’m afraid this dark night will be unlit by even a star of hope."

Echoing the bishop’s call to action were philosopher Alice von Hildebrand, authors Mary Ann Kuharski and Ann Sheridan, and former abortionist Bernard Nathanson. Former Falls Church abortionist Joan Appleton also addressed the delegates, describing how a sidewalk counselor had befriended her during her directorship of the Commonwealth Women’s Clinic on Broad Street in the late 1980s.

Appleton, raised in a "strict Irish-Catholic family," said the counselor’s compassion and persistence eventually led her out of the industry and back to confession for the first time in 25 years.

"I will work for the pro-life movement until the day I die," Appleton emotionally vowed, "so that the 10,000 babies I killed haven’t died in vain."

To heal from her past, Appleton recounted how she draws a picture of a baby every morning, names it, and offers it to God in honor of one of her victims.

"This is peace," she said.

Appleton admonished everyone to pray regularly at an abortion facility and accept that the effects of such a presence may not immediately become apparent.

Jim Sedlak, head of Planned Parenthood opponent STOPP, reported that the nation’s largest abortion provider is returning to its core businesses of sex education, birth control and abortion after an unsuccessful foray into mainstream health care.

Sedlak stated that Planned Parenthood’s latest annual report reveals that its profits and its number of clinics and volunteers hit a downturn in 1996 after an attempt to diversify its services. In response, the organization is gearing up to offer the abortion pill RU-486 and redoubling efforts to promote the book It’s Perfectly Normal as part of a sex education campaign.

"This book is pornography," claimed Sedlak.

The STOPP director stated that Planned Parenthood’s 1997 Plan of Action includes getting abortion to be "recognized as a fundamental moral value" by Americans. One of the best ways to counteract Planned Parenthood’s activities, according to Sedlak, is to organize legal action, such as zoning restrictions, at the local level.

While fighting abortion is the primary work of HLI, most of the conference speakers addressed themes surrounding the moral decline in America as the root cause of the advancing "culture of death."

Alice von Hildebrand, noted author and longtime philosophy professor at Hunter College, identified the gradual rejection of the Christian ideal of suffering as a main culprit in America’s cultural transformation. "To accept to suffer that a child may be born," von Hildebrand passionately exhorted, "is to imitate in a modest way the debt that Christ paid on the cross."

Von Hildebrand added that "This world of ours is dying because we are killing maternity." The secularization of Catholic education was cited by Georgetown Ignatian Society president Ann Sheridan as another ingredient in the cultural malaise. Sheridan recounted how "the corporation known as ‘Georgetown,’" once a leading teacher of moral values, has come to the point of "institutionalizing formal dissent."

Georgetown recently became the first Jesuit school in the world to fund a pro-abortion student group, according to Sheridan, while allowing experimentation on aborted human infants and requiring "safe sex" instruction for its incoming students.

The university had previously banished all crucifixes from classrooms, said Sheridan. To alleviate situations such as these, Sheridan advocated notifying bishops and the Vatican, if necessary, of any canon laws violated by the transgressions.

An ongoing controversy surrounding the conference underscored the many references made there about a culture hostile to the pro-life message. Just weeks after Archbishop Harry Flynn of Minneapolis-St. Paul had agreed to celebrate the conference’s opening Mass, a Sister of Zion nun in his chancery orchestrated a nationwide lobbying of the archbishop to denounce HLI as anti-Semitic.

It was widely reported that Sister Marge Boyle had based her charge on the fact that HLI founder Father Paul Marx had once described the abortion industry as a "holocaust" led by many self-proclaimed Jews.

Former Jew Bernard Nathanson and several pro-life Jewish leaders corroborated Marx’s 1987 statement and personally vouched for his character.

"I can smell anti-Semitism," Nathanson said, describing incidents from his childhood, "and Father Marx is not anti-Semitic."

HLI spokesman Anne DeLong explained to the HERALD how Archbishop Flynn, without consulting Father Marx, retracted his offer to celebrate Mass and planned instead to lead a prayer service at a synagogue with members of the American Jewish Congress — a group reportedly in favor of abortion rights.

Despite last-minute pleading by Catholic leaders such as Father Richard John Neuhaus and Father John Hardon, the archbishop went forward with his decision.

After the prayer service, Archbishop Flynn inflamed the controversy by telling reporters that Father Marx’s rhetoric was reminiscent of "Nazi Germany."

Encouraged by the impasse, a teenage group called "Fight the Right" demonstrated outside HLI’s opening Mass at the St. Paul Cathedral and also at its conference site, shouting obscenities and anti-Catholic epithets.

According to the Wanderer newspaper, Archbishop Flynn was previously knowledgeable of HLI. When the archbishop was rector of Mount St. Mary’s Seminary in Emmitsburg, he reportedly had twice invited Father Marx to address the seminarians.

The archbishop’s spokesman told the HERALD that he did not anticipate any positive developments in the near future in his relationship with Father Marx.

Copyright ©1997 Arlington Catholic Herald, Inc. All rights reserved.

[Unam Sanctam]

Archbishop Flynn said sash-wearers would not be denied Communion because members of the movement had assured him in writing that their presence was not in protest of church teachings.

And if the Archbishop believes this he is either a fool or a heretic. Do the Rainbow Sashers accept the call to chastity for those outside of holy matrimony and the sinfulness of all homosexual activity? Do they reject that mortal sins should be confessed and absolved prior to partaking of holy communion? It is quite clear that they do not, or there would be no point to their disruption of religious services and their attempt to deny the freedom to worship peacefully to faithful Catholics.

[american colleen]

You are lucky to have friends who would even entertain Catholic retreats and who actually know who the LC's are!

I believe you are right on this but it still doesn't explain the abrupt betrayal by Archbishop Flynn. Although, it seems betraying Catholic orthodoxy is a pattern in his diocese. It appears he caves to the progressives and sells out the orthodox. I sometimes wonder if the orthodox can be abused because they will still be faithful and the progressives are petted to keep them in the fold. Whatever, this sort of unexplained behaviour undermines the faith and causes confusion.

[american colleen]

It would be instructive to see what would happen if a bunch of Opus Dei or Legionaries came to Mass wearing attire that identified them with those groups. Bet there would be a lot of men in the ordained group who would be more uncomfortable with the above than they are with the rainbow sash wearers.

[undirish01]

Gee,

Since the MOVEMENT Regnum Christi (Lay apostolate for the Legion) is no longer allowed on diocesan property (along with the Legion priests and brothers) I wonder if the movements like Cursillo, Teens Encounter Christ, and Communion & Liberation will be ordered off diocesan property as well (don't know if they have CL).

Let's face it folks, "liberal" so-called Catholics loathe anything which bespeaks of loyalty to the Eucharist, the Pope, the Magisterium, and the Blessed Mother. This IS the crux of the problem with the un-named "pastors". I have dealt with this personally with a former pastor who was quite known for reading the National Catholic Reporter in the confessional (if you could ever find him there).
The Reporter ALWAYS bashed the Legion. My former pastor vehemently disliked the Legion.

If there is a significant number of priests in the good archbishop's diocese who "lean left", it is no wonder that this has happened. You can bet the Legion was probably doing well with vocations in Flynn's diocese.

Look for other so-called "moderate" bishops to follow suit here.

[rogator]

"He also recently refused to grant permission to any of the Indult attendees from having their children confirmed in Wausau Wisconsin in the traditional rite."

I thought this was the guy who respects diversity.
I would NEVER allow my children to be confirmed in the modernist ceremonies performed in recent years in my parish.

[undirish01]

The late, great Father John Hardon once responded to a friend of mine when she asked him if he thought the Church in the U.S. would move into a schism: "Oh my dear, Rome already feels the U.S. Church is in schism. She just will not declare it formally so."

Wow.

Back to topic. This is from Carol McKinley's blog-site:


'Mea Culpa, mea Culpa, mea maxima culpa

I sure hope Barbara Kralis wasn't discouraged from pursuing gathering up the elstinkeroo with the abdication of duty by Bishop Flynn.

He kicked the Legionaries of Christ out of his diocese.

Not Voice of the Faithful. Not Call to Action. Not Future Church. Not Dignity.

At the same time he defended giving people wearing Rainbow Sashes, protesting the teachings of the Church the Blessed Sacrament...he threw OUT the Legionaires of Christ!

"...the activities of Regnum Christi are to be kept completely separate from all activities of the parishes and the Archdiocese".

Yes kiddos...they are not to be promoted or held on diocesecan property.

According to the enclosure in this latest snafu....it seems to me that his beef is....he simply can't figure out what their gig is about. All the people who are loyal to the teachings of the Magisterium and the lectures that promote and foster such loyalty....are confounding him. He's perplexed.

His pastors are experiencing a different mission than the one they are on...where their speakers and homilists promote severing the conscience of the flock from the Catechism and Humanae Vitae.

"This is simply unacceptable."

It will not be tolerated!! He's looked into Regnum Christi and their mission is inconsistent with unity......while he ran over to the Vatican to defend Rainbow Sash.

"As a result, I have decided that the Legionary of Christ are not to be active in any way in the Archdiocese of St. Paul and Minneapolis"

"In addition, although members of the faithful have a canonical right to join associations of the faithful, such as Regnum Christi, not all such affiliations are officially approved or supported."

He says because they operate outside of the normal structures, there is "no opportunity for him to exercise appropriate vigilance in that regard".

Laughable.'

[u57896]

I wish all the trads from the area would attend one of his masses and when approaching Communion fall to one knee's to receive our Lord. I wonder what his reaction would be to such an act of reverence......

[Mershon]

Dear Sir or Madam,

As a former member of Regnum Christi for nearly 7 years (and my wife headed up the women's section, as one part of the Atlanta group), I concur the Legionaries are orthodox and for the most part, great guys.

However, do NOT let the apparent concern with the children's spiritual formation fool you. Their entire and total and complete methodology is based on gaining more RC member and especially, more young men to their seminary. EVERYTHING is directed toward that cause and they often cross the line (in my opinion as well as dozens of other orthodox Catholics I have spoken with who ceased all association with them) using psychological manipulation and coercing many into "vocations" who find out, many times too late, that they never really had a vocation to the Legionaries or the priesthood, and that it certainly was NOT from God.

We have a 40-something man in our parish who was a Legion priest for several years AND NEVER HAD A VOCATION. He was mild-mannered and just went along with their program. If you question your vocation, as everyone does NOT have one, you become the subject of harassment and bitterness on the part of the Legionaries. Finally, he was sent to Benedict Groeschel for spiritual direction, and concluded he never had a vocation. His story is one of many.

If I were you, I would be extremely cautious in giving them access to my children. I am being as serious as I possibly can be.

Seven years assisting them in "capturing vocations" in our diocese outside of Atlanta, under cover, and not with our Bishops or parish priests permission (as they NEVER seek this in dioceses they believe to be "unorthodox" or un-Legionary friendly). There are many dioceses and orthodox priests who are not fans of the Legionaries; it is NOT just because it is Archbishop Flynn. Anyone is welcome to e-mail me privately if they have additional questions.

[Mershon]

The Legion of Christ is NOT traditional, nor are they fans nor advocates of the Traditional Latin Mass. I have firsthand experience with this one, with them as my spiritual directors for years. They are NOT traditional regarding the liturgy and sacraments.

[Mershon]

"The thing that drives some bonkers is their air of secrecy and total loyalty to the Pope and to the Magisterium. I suggest you look no further than this. The LC's are the good guys."

This is exactly what they want everyone to think. Yes, their retreats are good, but they are not as squeaky clean as they appear. They use coercive and manipulative mind games with boys and young men--and women. They violate parent rights. Do NOT ever send your children on their retreats as they will give you very little access to talk to them on the phone, for DAYS at a time. Satan often comes disguised as an angel in white. Don't be fooled.

[Mershon]

I imagine their secretive techniques and uncanonical invasion process finally pissed him off. Like him, I once was a BIG Legionary supporter. You should have heard my spiritual director when I started telling him we had a Fraternity of St. Peter priest visit our house and that I was recommending some young men to consider their order. Even an unorthodox bishop gets it right eventually.

I am personally responsible for many of the Regnum Christi men that are still part of their group in our diocese, without the consent of our bishop. Trust me, there is more here than meets the eye.

Just because Flynn is a big Rainbow Sash fan (apparently), does not mean he is wrong on the Legionaries.

[Mershon]

"It would be instructive to see what would happen if a bunch of Opus Dei or Legionaries came to Mass wearing attire that identified them with those groups. Bet there would be a lot of men in the ordained group who would be more uncomfortable with the above than they are with the rainbow sash wearers."

This would never happen. They operate beneath the radar screen intentionally. All of their apostolates have cute little names that NEVER mention anything about where they originate--neither Legion of Christ nor Regnum Christi.

[vox_freedom]

Satan often comes disguised as an angel in white. Don't be fooled.

Thanks for this message and the other clarification re: if these folks are traditionalists: which apparently they are NOT.

[saradippity]

Thanks for all the critical information you have posted since my post to you and Marshmallow yesterday. Some of the information contained within the material that you linked to us,is what I believe to be keys to open our eyes to the characters behind the hidden assault agninst the Catholic Church.

I bet the Water Department visited Archbishop O'Malley at the behest of the feminazi nuns and poofter priests working in the chancery as well as prominent parishes around your town. Ugh!! Ultimately,the Triune God wins but meanwhile the devil has a pretty good hold on many.

[sinkspur]

They use coercive and manipulative mind games with boys and young men--and women.

Not unlike some of the methods of Opus Dei in its "recruitment".

[BlackElk]

Opus Dei, Legionaries of Christ, and Communion and Liberation are the "new Jesuits" in the positive sense and they are the future of the Roman Catholic Church in the US and elsewhere. The reforms have clearly failed. The AmChurch is in functional collapse wherever the Kumbayas have prevailed. Scum like Kerry are what passes for a "Catholic" in AmChurch precincts.

I know Father Bannon personally. When I lived in Connecticut, he was our dinner guest. I have known several Legionaries priests since they were Connecticut teenagers---fine guys then and fine priests now. No organization, Catholic or otherwise, is without sinners or without people of poor judgment. If perfection must be proven before we act, we will never act.

Legionaries appear to have been gravely libeled by a few disgruntled ex-seminarians ably lending their names and their claims to the usual gang of press and media suspects in attacks on Father Maciel. St. Ignatuius Loyola also ahd to deal with such snakes in the early days of the Society of Jesus.

[american colleen]

Thanks for this message and the other clarification re: if these folks are traditionalists: which apparently they are NOT.

I can't see how that has been clarified?

[vox_freedom]

I can't see how that has been clarified?

I took it on Mershon's words: The Legion of Christ is NOT traditional, nor are they fans nor advocates of the Traditional Latin Mass. I have firsthand experience with this one, with them as my spiritual directors for years. They are NOT traditional regarding the liturgy and sacraments.

If you take issue with what Mershon wrote, perhaps you should inquire from him as to the basis of the views presented or offer your own perspectives or evidence to the contrary.

[american colleen]

I'm not questioning anyone's words but posted on this thread are two sets of very different perspectives on the Legionaries. Start talking about Opus Dei and the same thing will happen.

All I know is that as a Catholic parent, if I want my child to have a Catholic education and my choices are as follows: public school, diocesan Catholic school or a Legion of Christ school, the choice wouldn't be hard as the first two choices are very similar to one another.

I have blind trust in nothing but God, btw.

[AAABEST]

Good to see you sir. You're at your best when you're using your knowledge of the faith to inform and shed light.

God's blessings to you and yours during advent.

[vox_freedom]

I have blind trust in nothing but God, btw.

In addition to the above, you raise excellent points. I will attempt to become better informed on this group.

[sinkspur]

Elk, both Opus Dei and the Legionnaires are noted for their strong-arm psychological tactics when dealing with potential "recruits." There is never an excuse, of any kind, for pressure to be applied in a decision for Christ.

Nobody brought up the abuse charges against Maciel, Elk, though the men making the accusations are now past middle age and are still making the charges.

Emotional vulnerability affects freedom of choice, and nobody should take advantage of people who are not free of psychological pressure.

The Charismatic Renewal was guilty of the same kind of "caught up in the wonderful feelings" stuff in its early days.

Caution is advised where emotion is involved in anything.

[sinkspur]

BTW, you say "the reforms have failed."

Both the Legionnaires and Opus Dei are firmly committed to Vatican II and the Novus Ordo. There's not a "traditional" priest in either movement.

[Grey Ghost II]

Both the Legionnaires and Opus Dei are firmly committed to Vatican II and the Novus Ordo. There's not a "traditional" priest in either movement.

I agree.

[Diago]

Both the Legionnaires and Opus Dei are firmly committed to Vatican II and the Novus Ordo. There's not a "traditional" priest in either movement.

For what its worth, I've seen Legionaire priests at the Latin Mass in Cleveland. And I've also heard that many of the seminarians at the Legioaire seminary in Rome are very fond of the traditional Mass.

[sinkspur]

Anecdotal. The Legionnaires are committed to the Vatican II reforms.