Posted on 04/01/2005 7:41:06 AM PST by Frumanchu
You know something. I don't think any of the obedience based salvationists have attempted to respond to this post of yours. I wonder why.
In the service of the Lord,
Christian.
You have a special place in heaven
What does the word of God say?
Hint.. In the OT the Holy Spirit was on them not in them for special purposes ( with one exception)
So a work of the spirit on some one is different then indwelling ....
But you do not believe in the Holy Spirit so it is moot..
So Doug what are you going to answer to that question, or don't you know?
lol
Have a good Sunday :)
Amen
The problem is these same people with mouth the words that they are saved by faith , but then believe they are kept by works. So in effect they are saved by works aren't they ?
Hint.. In the OT the Holy Spirit was on them not in them for special purposes ( with one exception)
So a work of the spirit on some one is different then indwelling ....
So the spirit of God works with someone to bring them to repentence and IF they obey God then he gives them his holy spirit to indwell in them? That's the way I read it. Is that the way you read it?
That's kind of a distortion of the belief that man has freewill to accept or reject God's salvation. Obedience to God IS love of God.
Christ told us the parable of the prodigal son. In that parable the son who obeyed his father lived under the rules of his father because he loved him. The prodigal son did not want to do what his father wanted and chose to live lavishly away from his father. The father loved them both and eventually the prodigal son returned and lived under the rules of his father (obeyed him). In that example, both sons were free to leave at any time.
So ? to those people view and live with the belief of ( in their minds, there is not permanent salvation, unless MAN still keeps his dirty hands in it ) Salvation through obedience, what are you going to do ?
Again a misunderstanding. God will never withdraw his salvation as long as we want it. However, there is example after example in the bible showing that man can reject God's gift of salvation after God gives it.
The clearest is here:
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5 and have tasted the good Word of God and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 and who have fallen away; it is impossible, I say, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify the Son of God afresh to themselves and put Him to an open shame.
How do you intepret those verses?
Without a work of the Holy Spirit a man would not choose to obey God.
It is the Holy Spirit that leads a man to the truth and that convicts us of our sin.. A man will not choose to obey the gospel and repent and believe without the leading of the Holy Spirit.
Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
2Ti 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
2Cr 7:9 Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing.
Act 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand [to be] a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
Act 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
Repentnce is a gift of God .... seeking it with tears as did Esau or Judas who tied to repent and could not find it.
Hbr 12:16 Lest there [be] any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
Hbr 12:17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.
Mat 27:3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
Mat 27:4 Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What [is that] to us? see thou [to that]. Mat 27:5 And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.
2Cr 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
No man can obey this command with out the Father drawing Him
Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
All other obedience is a work of man and not grace. It damns not saves
Have you formulated an answer for St. Peter at the golden gates yet?
Why should god grant you eternal life with Him ?
B'Shem Y'shua
chuck
That would be similar to me asking you why John 3:36 uses "believe" and "not obey" as contrasting words.
Whenever we talk about belief and obedience it does get a little tricky because obedience is the evidence of belief. But this obedience does not stem from what we “will” ourselves to do, it is an act of God caused by God. It goes back to a fundamental promise of God in the Old Testament.
Eze 36:26-27 "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances."
To say we are obedience and we need to keep God’s command, even New Testament commands, is to misunderstand the problems the Old Testament folks had and underestimate the work of the Holy Spirit in our lives. Paul states that:
2Co 5:16-18 Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer. Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, …”
The Old Testament folks couldn't be obedient to the Law and we certainly couldn't be obedient to the Great Commission if it were not for the Holy Spirit.
I find most Christians today do not understand the workings of the Holy Spirit. They think of Him nothing more than a small voice whispering in their ear. This is not what the Bible states when God says He will put His spirit in us and CAUSE US TO WALK in His statutes. True Christians are new creatures because of the Holy Spirit. We're not perfect creatures but God is chastening us to be obedient to His calling until He calls us home.
That was a metaphor chuck :>)
Oh I love metaphors
Marriage is a metaphor for salvation.
Once married ; always married.
Once saved ; always saved.
B'Shem Y'shua
chuck
"Clear and righteous questions like this one reaffirm the Reformed faith for me."
Well, I'm not so sure that it reaffirms the Reformed faith, but it does affirm that that the Lord's Atonement is not an incomplete one. At the end of the ages, the Lord appeared an put away sin. That includes the sin of disobedience. So, why should that sin hinder a man any more with his salvation than any other sin for which the Lord made atonement.
BTW, my Reformed brother Christian, I have noticed that no one attempted to respond to your example of David. Evidently, the works based salvationists don't want to consider the possibility that God was just lucky that David repented before he died so that the man after God's own heart didn't have to get thrown into torment.
I do know that you think that my own non-Reformed views are essentially a works based salvation, but I can assure you that accepting the free gift of God is not a work, but mere thankfulness of the free mercy of God.
Colin.
Does confession come before salvation, or after salvation?
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