Posted on 04/01/2005 7:41:06 AM PST by Frumanchu
Could you have believed without the Word of God first convicting you?
Romans 10:17 -
So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
I know what Romans says. Your answer seems to contradict Paul.
Could you have obeyed without first being convicted by the Holy Ghost through Scripture? That's the question using your own statement.
All sight and hearing come from God.
But what about Ephesians 2:
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
How can you read this scripture and say you have any part in your salvation? V.5 and V. 8 are glaring testaments to our inability to choose Christ. It appears to me, if you claim to take some action to "close the deal" on salvation, that you are claiming something you can boast about.
I certainly would agree that all the items you list (believing in Christ, repenting of my sins, confessing His name, and being baptized) are valid evidence of a new creation in Christ, but certainly not the cause.
You still have not told me how those chosen by God in the OT were saved without baptism! Has the means of salvation changed between the OT and NT?? Can people still be saved by this "old way"?
I just came onto this today
We may think that we choose God but it is God who gives us the desire to want Him and the faith to be able to trust Him. God is the giver of every aspect of salvation even regarding repentance and faith:
John 3:27 - "John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven."
God has to enable sinners to repent:
Acts 11:18 - "When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life."
2Timothy 2:25 - "In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth"
God has to give people faith as a gift so that they can believe on Christ:
Ephesians 2:8 - "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God"
Regarding salvation, man has absolutely nothing to contribute: "knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked?" (Revelation 3:17).
Until God puts a new heart in us we are just like Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, who hid from God after they sinned. Until God draws us and converts us, we have no desire for fellowship with Him or His children. Instead we run from Him and His messengers and we consider His commandments burdensome and His Lordship something to be scorned.
WHO DOES THE CHOOSING?
Here are some Bible verses that are very clear about this matter of God choosing us - without any approval from us ahead of time:
John 15:16 - "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit"
John 15:19 - "If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you."
2 Thessalonians 2:13 - "But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth"
Matthew 22:14 - "For many are called, but few are chosen."
John 6:44 - "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."
Psalm 65:4 - "Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee"
Acts 13:48 - "And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."
James 1:18 - "Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures."
CAN OUR WILL OVERPOWER GOD'S WILL?
When we first look at John 1:12 it sure looks like it is we who choose Christ:
John 1:12 - "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name"
But then, when we look at the next verse, we can no longer draw that conclusion:
John 1:13 - "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."
So we can conclude that in John 1:12, God, by His will, converted people into His sons, thereby enabling them to receive Him and to believe on His name. One who is a child of darkness will certainly not receive Him.
Then when we read the first chapter of Ephesians, all we see are references to God and His will, not our own will:
Ephesians 1:4 - "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. 7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; 8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; 9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in Heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will"
Romans chapter 9 is a section of the Bible that makes no sense at all if we are to believe that man chooses to accept Christ, of his own free will:
Romans 9:15 - "For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy."
Isaiah put it well, regarding who is in control of things:
Isaiah 46:10 - "Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure"
"I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me." -- Isaiah 45:5
We love Him because He first loved us.
I believe that the verse I quoted from Romans matches what you are saying. The Holy Spirit works through Scripture to speak to us.
We are under a New Covenant. Those who lived under the Old Covenant, which was God's covenant with Israel, were justified by the Law. We are not under the Old Law. God's grace is what allows us to be saved, but we still must be obedient to receive that salvation(Hebrews 5:9).
Of course we can't be saved like those who lived under the Old Law. Is that a serious question? If so, then I would question what you have been taught about the relationship between the Old Testament and the New Testament. Christ gave His life as the ultimate sacrifice. This did away with the old way of atonement, which required continual sacrifices.
[snip]
Is that a serious question? If so, then I would question what you have been taught about the relationship between the Old Testament and the New Testament.
Can you name me one Old Testament saint who perfectly kept the Law? If not, I suggest you apply the same scrutiny to your own understanding that you are applying to visually_augmented.
No one was able to perfectly keep the Law. That is why the sacrifices were required. That is why the High Priest had to make a special sacrifice for the people once a year.
"Or else He's not God, but only an eternal scorekeeper who's playing the game along with the rest of us."
Or as someone else said to me once, He has one mighty big eraser....writing and erasing and writing and erasing....
But your perfect law keeping baptism saves right?
Inconsistency my friend.. either it is faith or it is works..
>Act 10:34 Then Peter opened [his] mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: 35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. 36 The word which [God] sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:) 37 That word, [I say], ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached; 38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. :39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree: 40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly; 41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, [even] to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead. 42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God [to be] the Judge of quick and dead. 43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. 44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
**** And also notice, Peter said they had "received the Holy Spirit just as we have". He was talking about on Pentecost.
Yes that is when the SAVED believers , the disciples of Christ received the Holy Spirit. The proclamation here was that after hearing the gospel Cornelius was saved and now had the indwelling Holy Spirit (WITHOUT WATER BAPTISM) .
These are the only two times this tyep of manifestation of the Holy Spirit is recorded in the New Testament. It was not because they were saved, it was a sign to "those of the circumcision"
On Pentecost the unsaved seeing the indwelling Holy Spirit in the disciples saw the power of God in them.and so they listened to the gospel. It was a sign ok , but not to the believers.. it was a sign to the unbelievers.
who were there with Peter, to prove to them that God could work through and accept the Gentiles. Also notice that Peter insisted that they be baptized immediately. If baptism is just a sign of an already existing salvation, there would be no hurry for to baptize them. ****
Are you saying that unsaved men have the indwelling Holy Spirit? Are you really saying that the Muslims have the indwelling Holy Spirit? The atheists ?The reception of the Holy Spirit was a mark of their salvation . it was as a sign to the Jews that observed that that now the gentiles were also heirs of the gospel
1Cr 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
1Cr 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
Read that ... I am left with the belief that those that preach the CROSS + ANYTHING ELSE is the teaching of the foolish that are unable to rightly divide the word of God and makes the preaching of the cross of no effect
The manifestation of the Holy Spirit, as is recorded in Acts 10 and Acts 2, is not recorded anywhere else. These are special circumstances that are not repeated.
In your post you said: "Read that ... I am left with the belief that those that preach the CROSS + ANYTHING ELSE is the teaching of the foolish that are unable to rightly divide the word of God and makes the preaching of the cross of no effect"
You took 2 verses from a whole passage of Scripture out of context. Paul admitted he had baptized a few of them there, but was speaking against a problem where some where placing their allegiance to the one who had baptized them. He states that their thinking was wrong, and that they should place their allegiance in Christ. His primary duty was to preach the Gospel, but He never said that baptism was not a part of the Gospel.
Let me ask you , in the COC if one is drawn by the Father to repentance and belief and he gets hit by a car and dies before he is baptized IN YOUR CHURCH does that man go to hell?
Back to rightly dividing the word of God my friend. The book of James teaches about how the world sees us and believes our testimony . It is written to the saved, (the church) it is not a teaching on how to be saved, but on how a saved man lives .To whom is it addressed?
Jam 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
It is addressed to the saved.Jam 1:3 Knowing [this], that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
James tells us how to live in the world as a testimony
Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Who are we to be showing? God who knows the heart? NO God knows.. this letter is about our testimony to the world how the world sees our Justification .
The example of Abraham is clear to the jewish audience.. Abraham was justified by his faith
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath [whereof] to glory; but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
The obedience of Abraham to offer His son was a Testimony to Abraham himself and to his son and to the men with him that he had a living Faith . He was justified in the sight of men by that act. God KNEW that Abraham would be obedient, God was not surprised. This test was to prove to Abraham and his seed and the people that would come after Him that men are justified by faith .
Abraham believed the promise of God for the nations coming out of his loins, so in faith he trusted God when he put his son on that altar.. this was all about faith and the testimony of it to the world.. His obedience and his works came from his faith .
That is the same as Baptism, Baptism is a testimony to the world of Gods work in us and our faith in him. It is a sign of our salvation
JKL: "Of course we can't be saved like those who lived under the Old Law. Is that a serious question? If so, then I would question what you have been taught about the relationship between the Old Testament and the New Testament."
I asked the question only because I anticipated your response. I, in fact, do not believe there is any different means of salvation between the OT people and those saved today. Certainly our obediance today does not stipulate the ceremonial laws the Jews were required, but that is merely a question of sanctification - not salvation (or justification).
The only blood that atones for sin is Christ's blood. The OT people of God were saved by Christ, not the blood of a goat, sheep, or dove. These sacrifices were merely symbols that looked forward to Christ's death on the cross. Baptism is very similar to the blood sacrifices of the OT in that it is an outward sign of an inward cleansing. The sacrifices of the OT saved no one just as baptism can save no one. The only one that saves/forgives is God and God alone through the redemptive death of His Son, Jesus Christ.
We certainly are under a New Covenant. But a change in the covenant does not eradicate the means of salvation. The only reason we needed a New Covenant is because man failed to meet his end of the bargain - not due to some insufficiency in God's promises or actions. This is a key point. Man will ALWAYS fail to keep his part of the covenant - that is why we rely COMPLETELY on the Lord to save us. If salvation is contingent on any obediance from man, it cannot succeed. No man has pure intentions in ANY action (even those who are regenerated) - all are tainted with sin. How can baptism be any different?
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