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Disciples of Pope John Paul (Faculty of Gregorian University Gripe About Piety of New Seminarians)
Newsday ^ | 4/13/05 | Matthew McAllester

Posted on 04/13/2005 8:24:06 AM PDT by marshmallow

A generation of seminarians expects to continue a conservative approach that was the signature of late pope

ROME - Just as Karol Wojtyla came to Rome to study before taking up a post in his first parish in Poland, so thousands of hand-picked young seminary students and priests from all over the world come to Rome to continue their theological educations.

They are the elite. They may not become pope, as Wojtyla did in 1978, but many will likely go on to become bishops and cardinals, as the schools' graduates have in the past.

And if the graduates stick with their current convictions, the future Roman Catholic Church will likely be as conservative as it has become under John Paul II. This generation of young men is part of his legacy. They are his spiritual and philosophical sons and disciples, and with many, even the introduction into conversation of some of the issues raised by reformist members of the church produce unease sometimes bordering on hostility.

One young deacon, from Ireland, forcefully told a reporter that he didn't think an interview should focus any longer on the issue of condoms and HIV. At another point he demanded that a reporter read back from his notes the deacon's comments about why women should not be ordained as priests.

In interviews with students from Argentina, Germany, Hungary, Switzerland, Angola, Ireland and Sudan over the past few days, eight young men in four colleges spoke almost as one about key topics they will face in their careers: the future direction of the church, the kind of man they would like to see elected pope, and the controversial topics of sexuality, personal morality and the role of women in the church that have many Catholics concerned that traditional stances will alienate existing and potential Catholics.

(Excerpt) Read more at newsday.com ...


TOPICS: Catholic; Current Events; General Discusssion; Prayer; Theology
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"I am concerned, and I don't want to isolate this clericalism to Rome," said the Rev. Tom Splain, an American professor of cultural anthropology at the Pontifical Gregorian University in Rome. "It's on the increase in all of our seminaries. Kind of a return to piety, kind of a superficial piety.

Yikes!! Piety in seminarians!!! What a disaster!!!!

1 posted on 04/13/2005 8:24:07 AM PDT by marshmallow
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To: marshmallow

It's time for a counter-revolution to throw out all these jokers like the professor.


2 posted on 04/13/2005 8:27:49 AM PDT by Pyro7480 ("All my own perception of beauty both in majesty and simplicity is founded upon Our Lady." - Tolkien)
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To: marshmallow
Kind of a return to piety, kind of a superficial piety.

Since the concept of genuine piety and devotion is foreign to this professor, all piety must be superficial piety. Sheesh.

3 posted on 04/13/2005 8:31:33 AM PDT by murphE (Never miss an opportunity to kiss the hand of a holy priest.)
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To: marshmallow
Kind of a return to piety, kind of a superficial piety. ... What happens in Rome is you have a greater percentage of those types."

Amazing, I wonder if he can pick lotto numbers too

4 posted on 04/13/2005 8:33:32 AM PDT by conservonator (Blank by popular demand)
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To: marshmallow
The young seminarians and priests who come to study in Rome are "careerists," he said, who spend very little of their careers in contact with regular parishioners and their problems.

Too bad, kind of like the Church keeping it's light under a bushel basket or something...

5 posted on 04/13/2005 8:36:22 AM PDT by conservonator (Blank by popular demand)
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To: conservonator

Kind of a return to piety, kind of a superficial piety, kind of a supercalifragilistic piety. This guy is a maroon.


6 posted on 04/13/2005 8:43:07 AM PDT by Jeff Chandler ( .:: Johannes Paulus Magnus: "Well done, good and faithful servant!" ::.)
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To: conservonator
The young seminarians and priests who come to study in Rome are "careerists," he said, who spend very little of their careers in contact with regular parishioners and their problems.

I think it's rather ironic for a professor at the Greg to make this complaint, when he himself probably has had less contact with parishioners than the typical priest.

7 posted on 04/13/2005 8:46:51 AM PDT by pseudo-ignatius
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To: murphE
"Since the concept of genuine piety and devotion is foreign to this professor, all piety must be superficial piety. Sheesh."

That's why it's important for the professors to just teach the concept and the basics, and leave the 'piety' up to the Holy Ghost and it's recipient. If one is going to teach religion, one must realise that piety is real, or at least a desireable option open to some.

Those that can, do. Those that can't, teach.

8 posted on 04/13/2005 8:49:11 AM PDT by Arguss (Take the narrow road)
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To: Jeff Chandler
This guy is a maroon.

Maybe suffering form superpiospantheisticheritctheosis.

9 posted on 04/13/2005 8:54:57 AM PDT by conservonator (Blank by popular demand)
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To: marshmallow; ilConteVerde; american colleen; Lady In Blue; Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; ...
And if the graduates stick with their current convictions, the future Roman Catholic Church will likely be as conservative as it has become under John Paul II.

The JPII legacy grows!

10 posted on 04/13/2005 10:36:50 AM PDT by NYer ("America needs much prayer, lest it lose its soul." John Paul II)
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To: NYer; ninenot

I can't wait until this generation becomes priests. I sent this funny article to my Gregorian seminary deacon friend in Rome. Should prove fruitful for discussion as it is passed throughout the seminary.


11 posted on 04/13/2005 10:43:09 AM PDT by Mershon
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To: NYer
"And if the graduates stick with their current convictions..."

Interesting.

Does anyone know specifically what these convictions consist of? I would be curious to know. This is good news.

12 posted on 04/13/2005 10:43:51 AM PDT by ilConteVerde
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To: marshmallow
And if the graduates stick with their current convictions, the future Roman Catholic Church will likely be as conservative as it has become under John Paul II.

And this is a problem how?

Santo subito! Giovanni Paolo il Magna!

13 posted on 04/13/2005 10:46:33 AM PDT by Bombardier (Strategic Air Command (SAC): Mission Accomplished, but needed now more than ever!)
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To: ilConteVerde
Does anyone know specifically what these convictions consist of? I would be curious to know. This is good news.

Based on the negative comments of some of the people quoted in the article I would surmise that the convictions revolve around fidelity to the magisterium and Scripture. If this proves to be true it is indeed good news.

14 posted on 04/13/2005 10:54:00 AM PDT by conservonator (Blank by popular demand)
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To: Mershon

The Greg's faculty has been regarded as less-than-orthodox for quite a while, with the usual exceptions.

There were a bunch of leftovers from Paul VI's reign, and then the inbreeding continued for a while.

I don't know if JPII ever really reversed the direction.


15 posted on 04/13/2005 11:01:58 AM PDT by ninenot (Minister of Membership, TomasTorquemadaGentlemen'sClub)
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To: ninenot

One of my college friends entered the seminary and completed his studies in Rome where he was ordained. He is now a parish priest here in Virginia at his second assignment. Not only was he heavily influenced by John Paul the Great, but he is a solid Reaganite to boot. (He served as my College Republican Vice Chairman one year.)


16 posted on 04/13/2005 11:08:04 AM PDT by ReagansRaiders
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To: marshmallow

The African students were emphatic about the ban on rubbers...

The more one reads from the article, the more it becomes apparent that the reporter REALLY tried hard to get one of them to wander away from doctrine.

Must have really had the reporter PO'd when he couldn't...


17 posted on 04/13/2005 11:08:39 AM PDT by ninenot (Minister of Membership, TomasTorquemadaGentlemen'sClub)
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To: marshmallow

I personally know 13 seminarians - two of which were sent to Rome under this very same program - and let me tell you, the Church in the next 20 years will be in very capable hands. The true affect Pope John Paul II had on the Church has yet to even be realized yet...


18 posted on 04/13/2005 11:10:26 AM PDT by mike182d ("Let fly the white flag of war." - Zapp Brannigan)
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To: ReagansRaiders

Arlington had an excellent Bishop and Voc Director for a number of years.

IIRC, your current Bishop is not the same kind of guy as his predecessor and has allowed a few tweaky things; but there are so many good men out there (including at least 1 from Milwaukee) that the Diocese should remain solid for quite a while.


19 posted on 04/13/2005 11:11:53 AM PDT by ninenot (Minister of Membership, TomasTorquemadaGentlemen'sClub)
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To: marshmallow
kind of a superficial piety

As opposed to the professor's piety? Lead by example, my good man!

20 posted on 04/13/2005 11:12:30 AM PDT by siunevada
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To: marshmallow
One young deacon, from Ireland, forcefully told a reporter that he didn't think an interview should focus any longer on the issue of condoms and HIV.

Right on, deacon!

Can we now begin to question reporters' obsession with making anal sex 'safe'? What's up with that? Is that all you think about? It's never gonna happen, reporter dude!

What person in their right mind imagines that HIV victims were obedient on condoms but not disordered sexual relations? Completely insane!

21 posted on 04/13/2005 11:30:06 AM PDT by siunevada
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To: marshmallow
THe best line:

"I heard with my own ears someone say the pope was a thief because he didn't fight AIDS," Dobos said. "But if everyone lived the way a Catholic should live, there would be no AIDS."

22 posted on 04/13/2005 11:47:59 AM PDT by It's me
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To: Pyro7480

A good example of today's young priests are on EWTN everyday.


23 posted on 04/13/2005 5:39:39 PM PDT by franky (Pray for the souls of the faithful departed.)
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To: marshmallow
At another point he demanded that a reporter read back from his notes the deacon's comments about why women should not be ordained as priests.

Yeah, 'cause we all know that reporters are always 100% accurate...
24 posted on 04/13/2005 6:25:10 PM PDT by hispanichoosier
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To: marshmallow
"I think there is a doctrinaire feeling among a lot of seminarians," said O'Collins, who has been teaching 35 years and, in spite of his anxiety over the seminarians of today, is not a particular advocate of liberalism. "And a bishop sending someone here is going to pick the reliable, safe ones. ... I think pastoral experience is a great reality teacher. They can't live like that. In the pastorial situation, they've got to be wise and helpful."

A Roman Catholic seminary is the only institution in the world that can take in a man and turn out a boy.

Pastoral experience will change these young priests. They will also be serving under pastors who are tempered by life, and human encounters.

25 posted on 04/13/2005 6:28:36 PM PDT by sinkspur (If you want unconditional love with skin, and hair and a warm nose, get a shelter dog.)
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To: sinkspur
Pastoral experience will change these young priests.

Maybe the delivery, but hopefully not the message. Bending the Truth to meet "realities of the world" is one of the reasons we have so many problems today.

26 posted on 04/13/2005 8:08:21 PM PDT by conservonator (Blank by popular demand)
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To: conservonator
Maybe the delivery, but hopefully not the message.

The essence of the Christian message has to be presented in a way that ears will hear.

27 posted on 04/13/2005 8:35:45 PM PDT by sinkspur (If you want unconditional love with skin, and hair and a warm nose, get a shelter dog.)
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To: sinkspur
Pastoral experience will change these young priests. They will also be serving under pastors who are tempered by life, and human encounters.

The model here is John Paul II, right?

The article is pointing out that these young men are inspired by him and seek to model themselves after his example.

We don't want pastoral experience to change that, do we?

The late Pope showed us that piety and contemplation are compatible with pastoral zeal. The whining of the seminary faculty is essentially the "Martha" complaint of the gospels. They seem convinced that too much prayer and communion with God will ruin these young men.

It is they who are out of step.

28 posted on 04/13/2005 9:15:26 PM PDT by marshmallow
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To: marshmallow
These young men do not speak with pastoral voices. They speak with dogmatic theological blandness.

Pastoral experience and prayer will temper the dogmatism and infuse it with the sensitivity that JPII exhibited in his writings.

29 posted on 04/13/2005 9:18:35 PM PDT by sinkspur (If you want unconditional love with skin, and hair and a warm nose, get a shelter dog.)
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To: Jeff Chandler; saradippity; Phx_RC; TotusTuus; Northern Yankee
(sara's heard this story)

I had lunch with a nun about a month ago from a local parish. Her general comment, when we were talking about the young priest who joined her parish last summer was,

"These new priests coming out of the seminaries are 'so conservative, just so conservative!' Even some of the other priests are complaining about them."

It took all I had not to spew my ice tea and howl with laughter.

It was then, I knew that this was good news.

30 posted on 04/13/2005 9:31:20 PM PDT by kstewskis ("Tolerance is what happens when one loses their principles"....Fr. A Saenz.)
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To: marshmallow

Sounds wonderful to me!


31 posted on 04/13/2005 10:37:04 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: marshmallow
I think the picture is getting better and better!

Cardinal Arinze - "Youth will embrace religious life with right role models"

Today's seminarians reflect growing trend

Number of Seminarians Increases - Please Decipher This!!!!

In Seminaries, New Ways for a New Generation

Seminary Springtime: Father Darrin Connall s Big Success

EVIDENCE GROWS OF DIRECT DISOBEDIENCE TO VATICAN IN MAJOR AMERICAN SEMINARIES

Pope to Church: Risky Seminarians Must Go

Priests Down, Seminarians Up

U.S. Priests and seminarians survey: more vocations in orthodox dioceses

Vatican Announces Surge in Seminaries during JPII Pontificate

Seminary Reform Needed in Wake of Sex Abuse Study ["the crisis in the Church is ... homosexuality"]

Homosexuals in seminaries? The latest.....

Priests 'In Orgy' at Seminary

Bishop urges gay ban in clergy; presses for overhaul in screening priests

A New Breed of Priest

AUSTRIAN SEMINARY SHUT DOWN FOR PROBE

Seminarians Show Support For Celibacy

556 Reasons for Hope [Seminarians Support Celibacy]

No Shortage of Vocations From Conservative Parishes

Oakland seminary housing sex offender priests

Phoenix bishop to helm Priestly Formation Committee [of USCCB]

Vatican Firms up Plans for U.S. Seminary Visitation in 2005

SIBLING VOCATIONS - Early calls led two sisters to same religious order

On the admission of homosexuals to seminaries

Catholic priests demand the right to marry

Disciples of Pope John Paul (Faculty of Gregorian University Gripe About Piety of New Seminarians)

32 posted on 04/13/2005 10:38:43 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: ReagansRaiders; kstewskis; Victoria Delsoul; JoAnka; Raquel; Kelly_2000
Not only was he heavily influenced by John Paul the Great, but he is a solid Reaganite to boot. (He served as my College Republican Vice Chairman one year.)

Can we borrow him for a few years?

I was really struck at Anna Quindlen's editorial in Newsweek this week. She makes it clear she is catholic, and then finishes up her article on Pope John Paul II like this:

"When the pope appeared to be channeling Leviticus, standing for orthodoxy simply for orthodoxy's sake, he appeared less like a spiritual leader and more like an ecclesiastical politician. seeing only the trees and not the forest."

She admires him for being a good man, but chastises him for not being in the current thought of liberal philosphies.

Quindlen continues to get wrong. (She also exclaimed a few weeks ago, during the debate over Terri Shindler Shiavo, that there is no such thing as a culture of life.) These "Catholics" don't seem to want to conform to the teachings of the Catholic faith. We need to continue with the education of our faith, with men who are going to remain faithful to the doctrine of the Catholic Church.

Keep those seminarians coming.

33 posted on 04/14/2005 4:29:11 AM PDT by Northern Yankee (Freedom Needs a soldier)
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To: ReagansRaiders

One of Justice Scalia's sons is a young parish priest in the Arlington diocese, as well. i am kinda betting he is conservative ; )


34 posted on 04/14/2005 4:38:55 AM PDT by xsmommy
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To: marshmallow

This is good news, my friends.


35 posted on 04/14/2005 5:36:38 AM PDT by Desdemona
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To: Northern Yankee; All
Don't worry: the younger generation is more conservative than the past.

I know whereof I speak: I am a part of that generation.

Actually, my sister goes to the Catholic University of America (in Washington DC) and she has said that the students are fully orthodox down there, and that many are contemplating the priesthood and the convent.

It's encouraging.
36 posted on 04/14/2005 6:02:14 AM PDT by tlRCta (St. Thomas More, Pray for Us! St. John Fisher, Pray for Us!)
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To: sinkspur
I agree, just so long as the Truth is not diluted in order to make the message palatable.
37 posted on 04/14/2005 6:38:51 AM PDT by conservonator (Blank by popular demand)
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To: franky
A good example of today's young priests are in Parishes in the Diocese of Arlington.

Loverde squashed the supply, but the priests that made it through the system before he (fully) took over are excellent. Also shows that orthodoxy (Keating) begets vocations, squishyness and modernism (Loverde) do not.

38 posted on 04/14/2005 7:13:22 AM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilisation is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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Comment #39 Removed by Moderator

To: marshmallow
This generation of young men is part of his legacy.

I pray the next Pope will continue his legacy. This is one of the things about the Church people tend to forget. The 2,000 year old Church reacts slowly because it thinks in terms of generations. A corporate CEO would have responded in Trump-like manner ("You're fired!") to the recent scandals. The Church, it appears, has decided to let the liberal priests and bishops die-off and have more conservative priests in training to replace them. Not the immediate response people want, but a long-term solution nonetheless.

40 posted on 04/14/2005 7:55:43 AM PDT by Armando Guerra
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To: tlRCta
Thanks... Your news is very heartening.

I also concur with your thoughts of the younger generation coming up.

Having taught CCD for the past number of years I see a very devout core of students who are very conservative in thought and deed.

41 posted on 04/14/2005 8:10:31 AM PDT by Northern Yankee (Freedom Needs a soldier)
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To: marshmallow
"Solving one problem may bring about another problem which may be worse than the first," said Taban, referring to the moral failings the church thinks relaxed policies toward condoms could encourage. "It is a great risk to the kind of truth the Bible is trying to give to the world," Taban added.

This is so true! I keep hearing that the world has changed, but it has not changed for the better. When you used to get married, it was assumed it would be for life. Yes, there was divorce but it was so looked down on that it was rare. You considered yourself a failure if you got a divorce. It made people a little more careful when choosing a mate. It made you really try to work things out before you headed to the lawyer's office.

Birthcontrol pills led to promiscuity, the kind that is common now and accepted. There needs to be something in the middle.

42 posted on 04/14/2005 8:12:59 AM PDT by McGavin999
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To: Northern Yankee
"Having taught CCD for the past number of years I see a very devout core of students who are very conservative in thought and deed."

That may be your experience, but from my own (somewhat recent, if I may add--I am one of the younger FReepers) the CCD programs--around me at least--aren't that great. I have not noticed the same phenomenon in my CCD classes. In my experience, the students (with some exceptions) are apathetic, most catechists, though of noble intent, are ill-informed (I assume you are not one; please do not be insulted), and are supplied with silly religion books that concentrate usually on touchy-feely themes of "Love makes the world go 'round," and say very little about doctrine.


For instance, when one student complained that Mass is boring, the catechist said that he should organize a fun youth one with the absolutely horrible guitar and student's band. Though I have been confirmed and are done with the formal CCD I have heard of other things: one catechist said that people on death row automatically go to heaven. I am pretty sure this is not true. However, in other sectors of the population, the people of my generation are pretty conservative.
43 posted on 04/14/2005 2:08:14 PM PDT by tlRCta (St. Thomas More, Pray for Us! St. John Fisher, Pray for Us!)
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To: ArrogantBustard
"Loverde squashed the supply, but the priests that made it through the system before he (fully) took over are excellent."

Just wait until these (so called) orthodox seminarians reach the real world (their diocese). Orthodoxy will be squished out of them like a grape.

What makes all these wonderful young people so orthodox? Because they aren't homosexual? I suppose that's a start.

Conservative = Orthodoxy???

44 posted on 04/14/2005 4:22:28 PM PDT by Arguss (Take the narrow road)
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To: Arguss
Orthodox = Teaches what the Church has always taught.

I know it's hard for some traditionalists to accept, but that can be found in Parishes where the Mass is offered according to the Novus Ordo. They really should try to wrap their minds around that concept.

TRADITIONALISTS HAVE NO MONOPOLY ON ORTHODOXY.

45 posted on 04/14/2005 5:39:51 PM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilisation is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: tlRCta
Interesting thoughts...

I have pretty much abandoned the nonsense that the Religious education text books try and promote. Our latest edition, as of two years ago, does more promoting of Native American traditions than the Catholic Doctrine and theology. I'd love to just toss the book in the garbage can.

We spend much time on the Catholic Mass, Eucharist, the Altar, and the different aspects of the church.

We explore the new testament, and work towards the 4 Gospels.

During Lent we create a trial of Christ. The students take either the prosecution or defense. We put Christ on trial, but we don't have Christ. We use witnesses from both sides. The debates are lively and educational. It is usually done during Holy Week.

Our last few weeks have been on the rosary, and of course the impact of Pope John Paul the Great.

46 posted on 04/14/2005 8:33:45 PM PDT by Northern Yankee (Freedom Needs a soldier)
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To: ArrogantBustard
Orthodox = Teaches what the Church has always taught. I know it's hard for some traditionalists to accept, but that can be found in Parishes where the Mass is offered according to the Novus Ordo.

From the Greek "ortho", which means straight or correct and "dox", meaning belief or opinion, orthodox refers to the approved form of a philosophy, ideology, doctrine, religion, and so on.

Try to find "correct belief" at any CCD class. How can a Church that teaches junk religion on Saturday, be orthodox on Sunday?

IMO, orthodox also refers to the liturgy. How you pray is how you believe. The TRADITIONAL liturgy has been thrown aside - and with it orthodoxy.

It's almost scary to think that people believe the NO to be orthodox. I imagine in a few years it will qualify as traditional, and then it will be orthodox.

47 posted on 04/16/2005 5:27:01 AM PDT by Arguss (Take the narrow road)
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To: tlRCta; Northern Yankee
"Actually, my sister goes to the Catholic University of America (in Washington DC) and she has said that the students are fully orthodox down there, and that many are contemplating the priesthood and the convent."

Yes, indeed, that's the trend. The majority of those persons under the age of 30 are pro-life (no doubt having something to do with their moral character), and about 25 students from the Catholic University in Washington D.C. recently participated in a pro-life retreat in New York, of which I was a speaker. They were young, intelligent and devout Catholics, with a real desire to spread the true doctrine of our faith. God bless them!
48 posted on 04/16/2005 6:50:05 PM PDT by Raquel (Abortion ruins lives.)
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To: Raquel
When my daughter graduated from Catholic University a couple of years ago they ruled out any speakers for graduation who were not pro-life.
49 posted on 04/16/2005 6:52:41 PM PDT by k omalley (Caro Enim Mea, Vere est Cibus, et Sanguis Meus, Vere est Potus)
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To: k omalley

Awesome news, thanks!


50 posted on 04/16/2005 6:58:03 PM PDT by Raquel (Abortion ruins lives.)
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