Any Ex-Church of Christ at FR

[jer33 3]

Does anyone have a personal testimony of how they left the mainline or International/Boston Church of Christ? And are you familiar with the doctrinal teachings?

[jkl1122]

I understand what you are saying here. I guess I was making my comments towards jer33 3, who did jump to a question of authenticity after arguing the text first.

[jer33 3]

Regarding the passage in Mark 16,I only noted what was stated in the translation. I believe in the inerrant Word of God--the ENTIRE bible--Old and New Testament. Still you have only two passages that you use to state your case. One of which you are questioning the translation of the preposition "eis". There are a few translations from the Greek listed on this thread. Do you need a few more resources?

[PetroniusMaximus]

***There are a few translations from the Greek listed on this thread. Do you need a few more resources?***

BTW - For those interested, I've found an excellent Greek resource...

http://www.zhubert.com/bible

Pretty sophisticated online language tool.

[PetroniusMaximus]

Re: Acts 2:38

From Robertson's Word Pictures of the Greek New Testament 
 
"Unto the remission of your sins (eiß apesin twn amartiwn –mwn).

This phrase is the subject of endless controversy as men look at it from the standpoint of sacramental or of evangelical theology.

In themselves the words can express aim or purpose for that use of eiß does exist as in 1 Corinthians 2:7 eiß doxan hmwn (for our glory).

But then another usage exists which is just as good Greek as the use of eiß for aim or purpose. It is seen in Matthew 10:41 in three examples eiß o­noma prophtou, dikaiou, maqhtou where it cannot be purpose or aim, but rather the basis or ground, o­n the basis of the name of prophet, righteous man, disciple, because o­ne is, etc. It is seen again in Matthew 12:41 about the preaching of Jonah (eiß to khrugma Iwna). They repented because of (or at) the preaching of Jonah. The illustrations of both usages are numerous in the N.T. and the Koin‚ generally (Robertson, Grammar, p. 592).

One will decide the use here according as he believes that baptism is essential to the remission of sins or not. My view is decidedly against the idea that Peter, Paul, or any o­ne in the New Testament taught baptism as essential to the remission of sins or the means of securing such remission. So I understand Peter to be urging baptism o­n each of them who had already turned (repented) and for it to be done in the name of Jesus Christ o­n the basis of the forgiveness of sins which they had already received."

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/RobertsonsWordPictures/rwp.cgi?book=ac&chapter=2&verse=38

[PetroniusMaximus]

*** I am saying that complete obedience to God is required for salvation. Do you agree, or disagree?***

Have you every had one day of complete obedience in your life?

We are saved by grace through faith... "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

"...Not of works (or read "complete obedience") lest any man should boast..."


My friend, answer this for me, if baptism is required for salvation then why does Paul treat it so lightly of it in I Cor?

[jer33 3]

I am not saying that I can earn anything. I am saying that complete obedience to God is required for salvation. Do you agree, or disagree?

Well consider that water baptism is a WORK (something that man does to please God), and yet the Bible teaches that a person is not saved by works.

Here are some examples:

Titus 3:5—“Not by WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS which WE HAVE DONE, but according to His mercy He saved us.”

2 Timothy 1:9—“Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, NOT ACCORDING TO OUR WORKS.”

Ephesians 2:8-9—“For by grace are ye saved THROUGH FAITH and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast.”

Romans 3:28—“Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith WITHOUT THE DEEDS OF THE LAW.”

Romans 4:5—“But to him that WORKETH NOT, but BELIEVETH on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.”

In other words, salvation is not DOING something; it is KNOWING someone (John 17:3). Salvation is not based on what we might do; it is based on what Christ has ALREADY DONE (John 19:30). Salvation is not TRYING; it is TRUSTING (John 6:47). If salvation could be earned by anything we do, then Christ’s death was a waste (Galatians 2:21). Salvation is not WORKING; it is RESTING on the WORK of Another (Romans 4:5). Good works are not what a man DOES in order to be SAVED; good works are what a SAVED MAN DOES (Ephesians 2:8-10; Titus 3:5-8). God’s holiness utterly condemns the best man (Romans 3:10-23); God’s grace freely justifies the worst (1 Timothy 1:15)!

[jer33 3]

Thanks for the link. I checked it out. It is ALL Greek to me: -)

I noted again that the preposition "eis" can be used in various ways.

[jer33 3]

Going back to Group 1-4.
Group 1 believes + is baptized = Saved
Group 2 does not believe + is baptized = not saved
Group 3 does not believe + is not baptized = not saved
Group 4 believes + is not baptized = ???

My question to you: Is there any verse that clearly states if you are not baptized in water that you are not saved?

[jkl1122]

I have pointed out more than 2 passages. The only reason I bring those up again and again is because you have yet to give a solid answer for these passages. As was pointed out by myself, and asformeandmyhouse, your "logic" when talking about Mark 16:16 is lacking.

[jkl1122]

There are different types of works talked about in God's Word. One type is works of the Law. We are not saved by keeping the Old Law. Another type of work is that of human merit. The idea here is that man can do something to earn his/her salvation. Baptism belongs in neither of these categories.

There is another type of work, and that is a work of obedience. Belief is put in the category of "works of God" in John 6:28-29. The idea here is that belief is a work "required and approved by God" (J.H. Thayer in "Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament").

Baptism is similarly designated in Colossians 2:12, where Paul says "having been buried with him in baptism, wherein ye were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead". Submitting to baptism is not a meritorious work that man does, since it is a "working of God". This is the only passage in the New Testament that classifies baptism as any type of work, and it is not the type of work you are suggesting.

[asformeandformyhouse]

My question to you: Is there any verse that clearly states if you are not baptized in water that you are not saved?

I'm not reading the Bible to determine how not to be saved. I'm trying to find out how to be saved.

Naaman didn't think the waters of the Jordan could possibly heal him of his leprosy, but once he was obedient to the words of the prophet Elisha, he was healed.

2 Kings 5:12  Are not Abana and Pharpar, rivers of Damascus, better than all the waters of Israel? May I not wash in them, and be clean? So he turned and went away in a rage.
13  And his servants came near, and spake unto him, and said, My father, if the prophet had bid thee do some great thing, wouldest thou not have done it? How much rather then, when he saith to thee, Wash, and be clean?
14  Then went he down, and dipped himself seven times in Jordan, according to the saying of the man of God: and his flesh came again like unto the flesh of a little child, and he was clean.

[asformeandformyhouse]

if baptism is required for salvation then why does Paul treat it so lightly of it in I Cor?

Keep reading, the answer is in verse 15.

1 Corinthians 1:13  Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
14  I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
15  Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.

They were having problems with division. Paul didn't want to have added to the problem brought by their misunderstanding. The book of I Cor is largely about correcting their errors.

[asformeandformyhouse]

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Wait a minute. Paul says that faith is a work.

1 Thessalonians 1:3  Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;
2 Thessalonians 1:11  Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

Obviously this is not the 'work' he is talking about.

[jer33 3]

No where in the bible does it say those who are not water baptized are to suffer eternal condemnation. It does however say that one who does not believe will indeed have that consequence. The bible does not teach that baptism (your COC step number five-your doctrine has an additional step) brings salvation.

We have the righteousness through Jesus Christ. It is a gift that is given and we can not take any credit. We mentioned Zechariah and I came across these verses. I think this a beautiful illustration. Joshua is standing before the Angel of the Lord (The Judge) and is being accused by Satan. The Sovereign Lord rebukes Satan as Joshua has an Advocate. Joshua was clothed with filthy clothes and the LORD had the filthy garments removed from him. His iniquity was removed and he was given new clothes. The new clean garments are a gift of righteousness from God. Just as we as believers are clothed with the righteousness from Jesus Christ. The fact that Joshua had no part in his cleansing indicates that this work was totally done by God's grace.

See Zechariah 3 below:

1Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to accuse him.
2The LORD said to Satan, "The LORD rebuke you, Satan! Indeed, the LORD who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you! Is this not a brand plucked from the fire?"
3Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments and standing before the angel.
4He spoke and said to those who were standing before him, saying, "Remove the filthy garments from him " Again he said to him, "See, I have taken your iniquity away from you and will clothe you with festal robes."
5Then I said, "Let them put a clean turban on his head." So they put a clean turban on his head and clothed him with garments, while the angel of the LORD was standing by.

[jkl1122]

"No where in the bible does it say those who are not water baptized are to suffer eternal condemnation."

Disbelief is explicity stated to bring about condenmation. I totally agree with that. By necessity of Christ's statement in the first part of Mark 16:16, not being baptized will bring about the same condemnation, since belief and baptism are tied together by the conjunction "and".

You are defying logic by stating otherwise.

[Quester]

"No where in the bible does it say those who are not water baptized are to suffer eternal condemnation."

Disbelief is explicity stated to bring about condenmation. I totally agree with that. By necessity of Christ's statement in the first part of Mark 16:16, not being baptized will bring about the same condemnation, since belief and baptism are tied together by the conjunction "and". You are defying logic by stating otherwise.

You are mistaken.

The passage in question says that ... those which believe and are baptized will be saved.

This is a positive statement.

It does not say ... that those who are not baptized will be lost (a negative statement).

The negative statement is that ... those who do not believe will be lost.

Even you must wonder why the issue of baptism was not included in the negative statement.

[jer33 3]

What does God give and what is man's role? I'm using someone else's quote as it is easy to understand:

"What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?" (John 6:28). Man naturally seeks to do just that-do something! The natural assumption is that good works, religious ceremony, church membership or holy resolve will pave the way for acceptance with God.

But notice the response of the Lord to the question as to what is necessary to stand approved before Almighty God: "This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. " (John 6:29). The answer is simple, yet full of deep and far-reaching truth. It reveals the glorious fact that if a sinner is to be translated from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of light, then the operation will be accomplished solely as a work of God's grace, apart from any meritorious effort on the part of the lost. God has done the work-the sinner is to receive by faith ("believe on him whom he hath sent) what has been provided freely in Christ!

But those who add additional steps to salvation claim that it is too easy to "just believe." They say, "Don't you know 'the devils also believe, and tremble'?" (James 2:19). That is exactly the point! There are two kinds of "believing." One is merely intellectual, mental assent; the other is heartfelt trust placed in Christ as the only Lord and Saviour. Certainly the devils do not believe in the essential way a sinner must trust the Lord Jesus Christ as his only hope and confidence. The former is merely recognition; the latter is absolute resignation. This is precisely why a careful, Biblical distinction must be made between the believing which saves and the believing which requires the addition of works and rituals to reach the desired end-salvation !

The Galatian believers were justified by faith, not works (Gal. 2:16; 3:22). It was the "false brethren" (Gal. 2:4), the Judaizers, who introduced the additional requirements of keeping certain tenets of the law in order to be saved. These false teachers troubling the Galatians were errant in two areas. First, they were trying to bring the believers in the Church Age back under bondage to the Law of Moses and, second, they were adding another step to "faith alone" in order to partake of God's salvation.

Water baptism is a "good work," Biblically defined. A "good work" seen in Scripture is simply the saint's act of obedience to the revealed will of God-it is doing something God has commanded those who are already His children. The additional requirements imposed by false teachers upon the sinner who is invited by God to receive Christ Jesus by faith is "another gospel "-a salvation by works- and God's curse is unequivocally pronounced upon it (Gal. 1:6-10)! The same is true for any supposed gospel preached today which adds any step to salvation by faith alone.

[jkl1122]

No, there is no need to wonder why it wasn't included. It is because it was not necessary. Belief comes before baptism, and if there is no belief, then there is no baptism. Including baptism in the last statement would have been redundant. Asformeandmyhouse and I have both posted sets of statements using the same logical form as Mark 16:16. If Mark 16:16 does not mean what we both have said, then those statements also don't mean what we have said. Yet, not a single person has pointed out a logical problem with those statements? Why not?

The first statement is a logical statement. If A(belief) is true and B(baptism) is true, then C(salvation) is true. By necessity, if either A(belief) or B(baptism) is false, then C(salvation) must be false.

You can twist the logic all you want, but it doesn't change the truth of the passage.

[jkl1122]

Belief is not all that is required for salvation. You have yet to prove that. Repentance and confession are also required, along with baptism.

[Quester]

Ultimately ... the relevant questions are these ...

1. Do you consider baptism to be a work ?

2. For, if you do, ... to reconcile with Paul in Ephesians 2:8-10 ... it cannot be a requirement for salvation. Paul is very clear here, lest we be misled ...

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

In other words, ... No works are part of the salvation event.

We are saved by God's grace ... through our faith (belief) ... to perform the works that God desires of us (including baptism).