A good friend of mine is a Baptist preacher, and he's never refused to perform a funeral, no matter who the deceased was. The funeral's a ritual to comfort the living. The dead person's beyond help by that time. He tries very hard not to be hurtful, but he does use it as an opportunity to witness to those who might be unsaved.
And when you get right down to it, NOBODY knows what might happened in the last moment before a person's death. They could very well have accepted Christ. We don't know that they did, but we don't know that they didn't either. I think we'll be surprised when we get to heaven at who IS and who ISN'T there.
Just another way of looking at things. I'm not Catholic, and they can do what they want. But with that said, I don't much like what this priest did.
AFAIK, from another situation like this, in the Catholic Church the priests are not allowed to or supposed to conduct a funeral mass for an individual who was living in opposition to Cathlic teachings. A practicing homosexual who was the owner of a "gay" bar died, and his family wanted a Catholic funeral. There was a big to-do about it.
There are other services or memorial services that can be done.
Rules are rules, and the rules shouldn't be broken if those are the rules. If a person is flagrantly breaking the 10 commandments, for instance, knowingly, without any repentance - then that person is not a Catholic in truth. It's one thing to fall, and then be sorry about it, and beg for repentance. It's another thing to proudly live in opposition to God's instructions.
Kind of like the controversy currently happening in Canada (and here) - some priests are refusing to give communion to people who espouse, for instance, abortion and "gay" marriage.
Maybe a Catholic will comment about exactly how it's supposed to be in the Catholic church.
I'm not a Baptist or a Catholic, but I know something of their theology. The biggest difference is that for Catholics you can only get right with God through the church. Protestents believe in a direct relationship with Jesus. So it would be appropriate for a Catholic not to do the funeral, but the Baptist to do so.
I have a friend who is a preacher, and he once told me he would never conduct a funeral for anyone who was not a confessing Christian. The last time he did it, it left him quite upset.
You can always find someone to conduct a service. But if you are a believing Christian, I imagine it is hard to go and say pretty words about how "oh death, where is thy sting" when in your heart you feel the person has gone into a lost eternity.
Sometimes you don't know the state of the person, that is one thing. But if you are sure they are not a believer, it is a bit hypocritical, when you think about it, to have a Christian service.
That is not Catholic teaching what you stated. You are uninformed of what Catholic Teaching is. That is why the Catholics have the Book Malachi added to the Bible.
The Bible also states clearly that though there is no one on earth holier than John the Baptist was, the least in heaven was holier than he was on earth (Matthew 11:11).
Explain Matthew 11:11, and I will give you a pass on what you said that when you are dead, you are dead. The book of Malachi also needs to be explained, as it was the folks who put the Bible together in the first place put in the book of Malachi. Were they wrong in putting the books in the Bible back in the 4th or 5th Century?
Finally, she was a public sinner and unrepentant. He did hold a service for her, and something that might be equivalent to what Baptists have.
But it was not a re-enactment of the Lord's Supper.
For Jesus also said: "Do not give what is holy to dogs.
Finally, there are those who feel they can sin as much as they want, as long as they said the words "I have been saved".
Being saved means keeping God's commandments and showing God you love Him with your whole heart, mind and soul, and loving your neighbor as yourself.
Leading other people into sin (living with a man out of wedlock) is not an example for young children, and would lead them into sin.
Do you condemn Jesus for what He did with the moneychangers in the Temple?
Do you condemn Jesus for saying to the adulterous woman (in sharp rebuke) "Go and sin no more!
Obviously, on FR, you are free to contribute to any thread, but why voice your disaproval of Catholic dogma/doctrine, on this issue, when you are so clearly ill-informed?
Not necessarily -- Acts of the Apostles 11:1-11 -- in particular verse 3. Here Ananias is accused by Saint Peter of "lying to the Holy Spirit" and that "Satan had filled his [Ananias'] heart".
Basically, Ananias and his wife Sapphira both dropped dead in front of Saint Peter. I would not say they are not in heaven, but most likely they did not make it because of the "deceit of the Holy Spirit".
A lesser story is that of Saint Padre Pio -- Italian monk and Priest who lived from 1887 to 1968. He once had a woman who asked about a countess or baroness who had died -- as he was known to have gifts about knowing spiritual things (he predicted to the Pope John Paul in the late 1940's that he would become Pope when the Polish priest visited him).
At any rate, this countess or baroness had passed away, and this person wanted to know if she went to heaven.
Saint Padre Pio responded to the woman that the baroness or countess had gone straight to hell.
The woman was supposed to relay this to other rich women who had asked her to ask about this for them.
She was at first reluctant to relay this, but was urged to by a friend of Padre Pio (Mary Pyle).
When the woman relayed the message, it had a very positive effect on the women who heard -- they knew the sinful life of the countess/baroness, and they immediately amended their lives for the better.
St. Padre Pio and St. Jean-Marie Vianney are very interesting studies of their own.
God bless, and keep the Faith!
" parish priest has refused to give an Italian woman a Christian funeral..."
"Father Mazzotta said that he had performed the liturgy of absolution for the dead. He added that he was close to the dead woman’s family and had offered them “words of comfort”"
"never refused to perform a funeral, no matter who the deceased was."
It sounds like he refused the Joyful Mass of the Resurrection which is the Mass for the dead.
He performed "the liturgy of absolution for the dead." I'm Catholic and not familiar with this, but a Liturgy is the Mass from my best understanding and it is for the deceased.
He didn't refuse. He followed his best understanding of what is Grace and what is not and how one lives has consequences within the Church and society and gave the rites appropriate to this woman's choice. And choose is what we all do in either accepting or rejecting Christ's Grace.
Priests out there feel free to correct me. This is all to my limited understanding.
You're entitled to your erroneous beliefs, but don't expect Catholics to accept them.
A Catholic funeral mass is offered for the soul of the deceased who may be in purgatory.
And when you get right down to it, NOBODY knows what might happened in the last moment before a person's death. They could very well have accepted Christ.
True. But God would obviously take that into account, with or without a funeral mass. In this case, the woman's life demonstrated a rejection of fundamental Church teaching, and hence a rejection of Christ's Church. The Church should not, and in most cases does not, force the consciences of people. By the example of her life, she wouldn't want a Catholic funeral mass any more than I'd want a bunch of New Agers to perform New Age ceremonies at my death.
Just a thought... the article mentioned the priest being a close family friend and that he had been in contact with the family. Perhaps his actions were chosen precisely to bring the greatest "comfort" to the grieving family. Perhaps the parents were estranged from the wayward child and were in danger of losing a 2nd to the wages of unrepentant sin. Perhaps they thought a stern church response might serve their family's interests best.
I agree that funerals are for the living, but without knowing the family details, I would hesitate to draw conclusions.
".....NOBODY knows what might happened in the last moment before a person's death." That is very, very true. There might not have been the possibility of being able to repent, to say they have accepted Christ into their life.
The most powerful sermon I ever heard on God's grace came from a Baptist pulpit. The deceased, a member, was about to go on trial for molesting another member, a child. On the appointed court date, he phoned the police to report a gunshot in his back yard ...
The text was Romans 8:1,2 and the message was that salvation was God's free gift to the undeserving -- such as the deceased. Such as you and me.
Well that is one of the differences between the Baptist and the Catholic religion. In the Catholic Church the funeral is for the dead not a ritual to comfort the living.
I'm not Catholic either, but I totally agree with the priest. A person who lives a blatantly anti-Christian lifestyle should not be accorded the dignity of a Christian funeral. By giving them a Christian funeral you are claiming them as "one of ours", which gives validation to their sin.
This reminds me of the passage that instructs us not to associate with someone who is called a Christian brother, yet is a fornicator or other notorious sinner. By shunning/disfellowshipping/excommunicating them (until they repent), you are upholding God's holy standard. Conversely, to treat them as "brothers" defames God's name in the eyes of the world: "See, that person is a fornicator and the other Christians accept him! So it must be okay."
I think that giving an unrepentant sinner a Christian funeral falls in the same category. Unless, of course, the preacher has the guts to say, "This man went to HELL! And you will too, unless ye repent...."
As you say, you are not Catholic. We Catholics certainly can do what we want and need no permission to do so from those outside the Church. Most Catholics have the manners to refrain from butting into your fantasies and suggesting how your church (if you have one) ought to govern itself or conduct its own business. You ought to behave likewise.
One thing I guarantee you is that you are right in imagining that you will be very surprised if and when you reach heaven.
Believe as you see fit. God is merciful as well as just. He gave you free will and will probably credit your sincerity. Still and all, it is three or four yards and a cloud of dust from age of reason to death and not the old (you should pardon the expression) Hail Mary pass play once and once only at, say 18 years of age, of accepting, etc. that will get you to heaven if you get there. Just a little counterpropaganda and truth that you don't want to hear in response to the usual stale and erroneous anti-Catholic propaganda which adequately catechized Catholics chuckle at hearing every time.
If you are still breathing, you are not yet saved. Christ has offered you the merits of His suffering and death of the Cross and you will be saved if you die in a state of grace. Free will is a gift of God and that gift persists until your death. A book, even THE book, and a few reading lessons notwithstanding, your theology leaves much to be desired. No one died and left every Tom, Dick and Harriet with the capacity to read whatever "translation" of the Bible through the prism of an agenda and a half to avoid the truth a theological authority. If it were otherwise, there would be one Protestant church and not ten thousand squabbling sects, each with its own wrinkle on the meaning of God's Word.
Henceforth, MYOB. If we need your advice, we will be sure to ask. Don't hold your breath waiting.
Balch3: I posted #85 before reading your #41. Please accept my apology for my misunderstanding.
It's true that funerals can comfort the friends and family of the deceased, but in the Catholic Church, intercessory prayer on the behalf of the soul must always come first in importance.
We believe that God is above and beyond the laws of time and space as we know them in this Universe. Thus prayer offered NOW can benefit a person who was on the verge of death a week or a month or ten years ago. Prayer can also ease the temporal punishments due to sin.
With this in mind, what the priest did was both honest and merciful.