Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Pop Culture Heros Help Recruit Priests
The Washington Times ^ | August 11, 2005 | Julia Duin

Posted on 08/13/2005 6:16:13 AM PDT by BulldogCatholic

Pop culture heroes help recruit priests By Julia Duin THE WASHINGTON TIMES August 11, 2005 An edgy poster showing a somber Catholic priest in full black cassock and sunglasses posed like "The Matrix" star Keanu Reeves is proving so popular that the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops has snapped up 5,000 of them. They'll be distributed starting Monday to the thousands of young people attending World Youth Day in Cologne, Germany, not only as guests of Pope Benedict XVI, but as targets for some gentle recruiting. The poster's creator, the Rev. Jonathan Meyer, 28, associate director of youth ministries for the Archdiocese of Indianapolis, says pop culture is the key to attracting young men to an occupation that has gotten bad press.

(Excerpt) Read more at washingtontimes.com ...


TOPICS: Catholic; Current Events; Ecumenism; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: popculture; priests; wyd05
Is this what the Novus Ordo church has resorted to, putting out posters as such?

New Candidates for the Novus Ordo Seminaries are being taught that If You Want to Be a Pop Star, the Vatican II Church Wants You! In Desperation to Attract Anybody to Be Novus Ordo Seminarians

Traditional Catholics Say: "Garbage In, Garbage Out" What does a "modernist" organization like the Vatican II church do when it can't get seminarians? Why, create a new ad campaign, of course! It is well known that "vocations" to the New Order presbyterate are virtually non-existent. What man in his right mind could have a "vocation" to "preside over the assembly" and sit in a big chair idle while lay ministresses deliver the "eucharist" and "perform" the sacraments?

The best figure predicting the demise of Vatican II church is that of seminarians. In the United States, before Vatican II always a vigorous source for new priests, the number of seminarians fell from 48,992 at its peak just before the Vatican II changes changes started going into effect, to 4,522 in 2003. That is a drop of some 90% in less than fifty years!

What we know is that, as far as vocations are concerned, it is the traditional Catholic Faith enshrined with Latin and Gregorian chant that attracts vocations to traditional seminaries and journeyman-priests.

But the Vatican II church, is going to the cheap ploy. It seems that to attract Novus Ordo "vocations," the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops has commissioned an "edgy" poster showing a somber presbyter in full black cassock and sunglasses posed like The Matrix star Keanu Reeves. [Washington Times]

Following the "saintly" leadership of JPII to sell to "pop" culture, 5,000 posters will be passed out at Benedict-Ratzinger's Woodstock Youth Day in Cologne later this month. Dioceses are borrowing from Tinseltown to compare the Newchurch presbyterate to the heroes of Lord of the Rings, Gladiator, Men in Black, Spider-Man, and Star Wars.

Supposedly, potential post Vatican II seminarians are inspired by cartoon characters, not Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and Paul, let alone Christ!

According to the adage, "Garbage in, garbage out." One can only imagine what kind of presbyters the Vatican II church is going to have, if any. If these men ever make it through the "pink curtain," you will hear fatuous "homilies" praising Luke Skywalker and Obi Wan Kenobi instead of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

1 posted on 08/13/2005 6:16:13 AM PDT by BulldogCatholic
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: BulldogCatholic

As a member of this "Novus Ordo" Church, I agree, this is nuts.

But I think you have to watch what you are getting yourself into. There is a danger in extreme Traditionalism, I am not saying you are there, but one must be careful lest they fall into it.

Is Benedict XVI the Pope? If you are silent on the matter, I will assume assent. But one wouldn't want to fall into sedvacantism.

God Bless


2 posted on 08/13/2005 8:08:20 AM PDT by StAthanasiustheGreat (Vocatus Atque Non Vocatus Deus Aderit)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: BulldogCatholic

Are priests "recruited" or are they called by God?


3 posted on 08/13/2005 8:32:45 AM PDT by Cavalcabo (Sancte Michael, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Cavalcabo

To momentarily go to their defense, I would hope it is not so much about recruiting priests, as pleading for openness to the call from God. I think many Catholic men might be called to the priesthood, but do not respond for various reasons. Just a thought. I am not saying using the Matrix is a good idea, it is nuts.


4 posted on 08/13/2005 8:34:08 AM PDT by StAthanasiustheGreat (Vocatus Atque Non Vocatus Deus Aderit)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: BulldogCatholic
Image Hosted by ImageShack.us

..."If we can get high-school youth to hang a picture of a priest in their room, that's huge in helping young men to answer the call to the priesthood..."

.. Because we want young men to know that being a priest is, like, totally awesome... and chicks dig it...

5 posted on 08/13/2005 9:06:37 AM PDT by Antioch (Flannery O'Connor: “evil is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be endured”)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: StAthanasiustheGreat

Well I think he is the Pope but a bad one at that, misguided and taught by the likes of Rahner and Kung. The same goes for JPII. Extreme Traditionalism? If you know the root meaning of the word "traditionalism" and what Tradition means, how can one ever to "to attached to our Lord" or the Apostolic teachings that were handed down? If one takes it to the level of being violent and uncharitiable (that is unprovoked), then I shall agree. But to follow the teachings of a man who opened the church to questions and uncertainty in Lumen Gentium just by adding the simple words "subsists within", it is he who under pre-Vatican II definitions would himself be heretical. If I am not mistaken was not Kung and Rahner, Ratzingers mentors not at one time Outlaws of the church, only to be their poster boys after Vatican II? Are the post Vatican II church now saying that they were in error for the first 1962 years and have now "righted the ship"? No-it is they who need to defend THEMSELVES that they are not heretical, all Traditionalists are doing is following the teachings of the church as they were for centuries

God bless you


6 posted on 08/13/2005 10:50:49 AM PDT by BulldogCatholic
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: BulldogCatholic

By no means am I saying there were no problems with Vatican II. Indeed there were many, but sadly, it is not the sole reason for the ills of the Catholic Church (too many American Catholics or European Catholics have embraced the materialism, pick and chooseism of our society).

Neither is Tradition a bad thing. But I do not think all is over. I do see a movement, however gradual back to the Traditions of the past. I hope and pray and believe that in twenty-five years the Novus Ordo Rite will be radically different from the c--- one often gets at Mass today (if you go to that).


7 posted on 08/13/2005 12:44:45 PM PDT by StAthanasiustheGreat (Vocatus Atque Non Vocatus Deus Aderit)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: StAthanasiustheGreat

God bless you


8 posted on 08/13/2005 12:54:12 PM PDT by BulldogCatholic
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: BulldogCatholic
I'm not sure who you're talking about! I know tons of zealous, orthodox young men who are answering the call to the priesthood and religious life.

It's true that the numbers aren't where they used to be ... but I recall that it was the "pre-Vatican II" Church which produced a flood of vocations during the 1950s ... most of which turned out to be the flimsy "I joined the Sisterhood because it was like the PeaceCorps" kind of "non-religious" vocation.

The upsurge in vocations going on now is authentic, and made up of people who are willing to take flak for Jesus.

Young, Orthodox, Growing:
Fathers of Mercy
Legionaries of Christ
Franciscan Friars of the Renewal
Franciscan Missionaries of the Eternal Word
Our Lady of Guadalupe Seminary -FSSP
Domincan Friars, Province of St. Joseph ***These guys in particular are great!!!***
9 posted on 08/13/2005 3:48:58 PM PDT by Lilllabettt
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Lilllabettt

So I guess you are talking about the same "springtime" that JPII was trying to sell before he died, like WYD (ever notice the WYD cross is not a crucifix, I guess to appease the Protestants in the name of ecumenism?), the same "springtime" John XXIII promised at V2?

The myth that is popular among certain Catholics is that things have gotten better in the last decade or so, coinciding primarily with the pontificate of John Paul II. Actually the statistics don't bear this out — in fact, the rate of decline has accelerated in some cases. Look at the number of priests.

In 1975, three years before JPII was elected, there were 58,909 priests. In 1980, two years after his election, there were 58,621, a one percent decrease from five years previously. But the pace of the decline has picked up since then — 57,317 in 1985; 53,111 in 1990; 49,947 in 1995; 45,713 in 2000; 44,874 predicted for 2005; 37,624 in 2010; and 30,992 in 2020.
• Seminarians: 17,802 in 1975; 13,226 in 1980; 11,028 in 1985; 6,233 in 1990; 5,083 in 1995; 4,719 in 2002.
• Sisters: 135,225 in 1975; 126,517 in 1980; 115,386 in 1985; 103,269 in 1990; 92,107 in 1995; 75,500 in 2002. . . .


10 posted on 08/13/2005 4:44:09 PM PDT by BulldogCatholic
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: BulldogCatholic

Look on the bright side, he is actually wearing a cassock, as opposed to the black shirt and pants that one usually sees modern priests wearing.


11 posted on 08/13/2005 4:49:34 PM PDT by Straight Vermonter (John 6: 51-58)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: BulldogCatholic
I gotta tell you, THE SPRINGTIME IS NOT A MYTH. The surge in vocations produced by the pre-concilliar Church in the 1950s turned out to false. But the young Catholics I know considering religious life right now are hard-core, POD, and on fire with love for the Faith. They think there's way more good than bad in the Church today, and they're enthusiastically optimistic about the future.

Compare their outlook with that of "liberals." Catholic "liberals" or "progressives" routinely poll as more negative about the Church and pessimistic about the future. According to them, there are no good Bishops, no good Popes, and no good ideas coming from the Church hierarchy.

And they wonder why they don't get vocations?? Do people want to dedicate their lives to an organization they're told is broken, backwards, and heading towards a spiritual train wreck? What sane person wants to do that?

In my opinion, pessimism is also the Traditionalist's Achilles heel. Listening to an endless diatribe about everything that's wrong with the Church is not very attractive.


JOY on the other hand, IS, as evidenced by these orthodox religious congregations answering the Holy Father's call for the New Evangelization. They're young, and they're growing!

Dominican Sisters of Mary Mother of the Eucharist
Sister Servants of the Eternal Word
Dominican Sisters of St. Cecilia
Alton Franciscans
Oblates of Mary
Sisters of Life
Carmelites of the Divine Heart of Jesus
School Sisters of Christ the King
Poor Clares of Perpetual Adoration
Franciscan Sisters of the Renewal
Missionaries of Charity
12 posted on 08/13/2005 7:45:35 PM PDT by Lilllabettt
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

Comment #13 Removed by Moderator

Comment #14 Removed by Moderator

To: seamole
That could be the crucial nudge that pushes a young man to think beyond the money and girls mindset that consumes most of his male peers.

True.. it's good as an attention getter, as you say, to nudge to a young man into thinking the priesthood is a great thing to give their lives to. I always get queasy when Catholicism goes down to the level of pop culture for any reason–to go along with whats hip, to get along in the world. Its a very dangerous slippery slope. Protestants are expert at adapting trends and repackaging the word into a trendy coating. Its natural when Sola Scriptura is the lodestone of Christian faith. But I shudder when I see magazines like Refuel and Revolve-thats a Christianity in Dhimmitude to materialism. Catholicism is difficult-it's going to disappoint the "Omigod-praise the Lord, that cute boy asked me out!" crowd.

Image Hosted by ImageShack.us

15 posted on 08/13/2005 10:25:38 PM PDT by Antioch (Flannery O'Connor: “evil is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be endured”)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: Antioch
I just asked my 16 YO to look at this poster and she said, while giggling, "I'm not sure I could possibly have an opinion on this... *snort*" --> my daughter

The cassock is a nice touch. Now the original Matrix movie is about a Christ-like figure (not really; but he functions that way), who comes to save those blinded by the Matrix, a pretty nasty place in that all of humanity is enslaved. I think the point those responsible for this poster are trying to make, is that people today are enslaved by sin. I would certainly agree. This might work if you can see past the "style" which is very shallow and, of course, the two movies which followed the original. : )

16 posted on 08/14/2005 3:43:26 AM PDT by Diva
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: Lilllabettt
Amen. The constany carping, complaining and cavilling is the traditionalist version of liberal talk radio; and just as successful

. Outside of Free Republic one never runs into these kooks in real life. My Parish is huge, multi-cultural, multi-lingual, filled with converts, producing vocations and assorted ministries. Of course the springtime is here. But, it ain't noticed by those whose delight is dissent, detraction and depression.

I thought we Christians would be known for our living our lives in joy in Christ.

And, as Peter Kreeft says if you want Joy in your life, think of JOY as an acronym. Jesus. Other. Yourself.

To hear some self-described traditionalists in here one would think he was hearing Satre; Hell is other people - especially the Popes since the death of Pius XII.

17 posted on 08/14/2005 4:17:41 AM PDT by bornacatholic
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: Diva
must. not. Photoshop. do'h!

Image Hosted by ImageShack.us

I agree with your points-Matrix did have your basic manichean good/evil elements as a modernist hook-they could have done much worse! We're lucky here in the Mordor of Liberalism (Toronto) to have a very conservative St. Philip Neri Oratory with 14 cassocked matrix priests and a sung Latin Mass :)

18 posted on 08/14/2005 4:26:24 AM PDT by Antioch (Flannery O'Connor: “evil is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be endured”)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: Diva

First off even the Novus ordo Post Vatican II church cant even get the poster right as their "priests" have not worn cassocks in over 40 years!

They are a sad group of old 1960 and 1970 radicals who are dismayed at the turn of events their expirimentation of the "flower power" years took. Only this time they took a generation of catholics with them

I would never let my children be catechised by this group of femi-nazi slack wearing "hip" nuns and Priests not to mention the laity who have taken over most of the teaching themselves as there are no priests left at the NO church and they themselves have no idea what the faith is.

My children are learning their cathechism from the 1917 Baltimore catechism taught by nuns who look like nuns.

I once asked these wonderful group of woman if they get hot and if they ever are jealous of the Novus ordo nuns who dress in "regular" clothes and do you know what their reply was? They all said that wearing the full habit and traditional garb as all past nuns have, and the black which gets very hot is only a small sacrifice to pay for the suffering our Lord went through on calvary and his mother at the foot of the cross, and getting a bit hot in the summer is nothing as compared! (and this one traditional church here in NY has already over 50 nuns, many of them teaching nuns as they have pnly been around since the late 1980's!) I was taken back as well as my wife. Amazing. The Traditional Catholicism has the Holy spirit guiding them as they are convinced what they are doing is correct as they have almost 2000 years of history and teaching to fall back on.

When you talk to a Novus Ordo supporter or pastor, all they ever can rely on, cause they despise anything that is pre-councilar is JPII "Theology of the Body" or some other vague document that has a nice mix of conservatism and liberalism all packaged up nicely. So sad


19 posted on 08/14/2005 8:08:48 AM PDT by BulldogCatholic
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: seamole
What kind of "SPRING time" has FLURRIES?!?

The Ohio kind, lol. I believe my parents reported snow here in mid-April. :)
20 posted on 08/14/2005 11:04:20 AM PDT by Lilllabettt
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: Lilllabettt
It's true that the numbers aren't where they used to be ... but I recall that it was the "pre-Vatican II" Church which produced a flood of vocations during the 1950s ... most of which turned out to be the flimsy "I joined the Sisterhood because it was like the PeaceCorps" kind of "non-religious" vocation.

Vatican II was announced in 1959 and convened in 1962. The Peace Corps wasn't conceived until 1960, and not founded until 1961. The kind of "vocations" you ridicule would be conciliar, not Traditional. Not that you should let silly things like facts get in the way of celebrating the New Springtime...

21 posted on 08/14/2005 12:51:58 PM PDT by Luddite Patent Counsel (Theyre digging through all of your files, stealing back your best ideas.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: bornacatholic

Outside of free republic one never runs into these Traditional kooks? Well I hate to tell you but they are all around you, and if these kooks "societies" had the unlimited resources as the Vatican, and were able to build church for church, there would be no one less at the NO mass or the church for that matter

As far as other discussion boards, you are correct as many of them ban any discussion on the horrors of the church and especially Vatican II and topics are limited to "womans clothing", "JPII (the new poster boy for the Vatican II church", some scripture (from the politically correct retranslated "New American Bible" (the V2 church even had to retranslate the Bible as the DR bible was just not PC enough for them and actually might be considered anti-semitic and not ecumenisitic enough) etc etc

How can you defend this anti catholic doctrine the church teaches now? It deviates from everything the church taught for 1962 years. It is the church which has stopped being Catholic, not Traditionalists.

If Traditionalists are in error today, then the church was in error pre Vatican II and we all know that is not the case

I would trust St Thomas of Aquinas over Annibelle Bungnini anyday!


22 posted on 08/14/2005 1:40:47 PM PDT by BulldogCatholic
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: BulldogCatholic
How can you defend this anti catholic doctrine the church teaches now?

*I don't participate in your heresy the Church established by Jesus teaches "anti Catholic doctrine."

Sorry you have lost the Faith. Blaming others won't help you get it back. Prayer will.

23 posted on 08/14/2005 3:41:52 PM PDT by bornacatholic
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: Luddite Patent Counsel
Vatican II was announced in 1959 and convened in 1962. The Peace Corps wasn't conceived until 1960, and not founded until 1961. The kind of "vocations" you ridicule would be conciliar, not Traditional.

The former Sister who said "I joined the Sisterhood because it was like the Peace Corps," entered during the 1950s. She was describing her motivations for entering the convent in retrospect: In other words: "I wanted to do the kind of thing people nowadays do in the Peace Corps, and at the time I entered, the Church was the organisation doing that."

I've also heard: "It was a great way to get an education" and "Because I didn't want to be a housewife."

In any case, the people who entered in 1959, 1960, 1961 were all FORMED by the pre-concilliar Church, right? The formation was obviously not up to snuff.

P.S. I'm not at all saying that everyone who entered religious life during that time period was insincere or had profane motivations. But it's a mistake to pretend that everything was a blissful bed of roses one decade and an absolute nightmare the next, and by that painful contortion, attempt to blame everything on Vatican II.

The unbiased truth is, huge mistakes were made during the 1950s, and then Vatican II popped the pimple.
24 posted on 08/14/2005 4:36:08 PM PDT by Lilllabettt
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: BulldogCatholic; Antioch
Wow Bulldogcatholic, did I upset you? Believe me that was not my intention. I would like to respond to your post point by point.

First off even the Novus ordo Post Vatican II church cant even get the poster right as their "priests" have not worn cassocks in over 40 years!

I am assuming that when you say “Novus Ordo priest” you mean any priest who celebrates the Novus Ordo Mass whether in Latin or the Vernacular and whether he wants to do so or not; not having the Indult to say the Tridentine Mass in his parish. As for the cassocks, my Novus Ordo priest does indeed where a cassock and the other priests around my parish in Detroit also where their cassocks. Feel free to come and see for yourself.

They are a sad group of old 1960 and 1970 radicals who are dismayed at the turn of events their expirimentation of the "flower power" years took. Only this time they took a generation of catholics with them.

A number are radicals, most are the go along type and a few; and growing number, are very true to the teachings of the Church from all the documents of the all councils and all the encyclicals. To one degree or another the vast majority of Novus Ordo priests serve the Church and their congregations; some much better than others, and sadly; a few not at all.

I would never let my children be catechised by this group of femi-nazi slack wearing "hip" nuns and Priests not to mention the laity who have taken over most of the teaching themselves as there are no priests left at the NO church and they themselves have no idea what the faith is.

Even in the rather liberal archdiocese of Detroit there are priests who do indeed teach catechism and teach it properly. My pastor insists on the use of the Baltimore catechism. A number of the younger diocesen priests I know, while wanting to use the Baltimore catechism and other worthy materials, have to wait until they get their own parishes.

My children are learning their cathechism from the 1917 Baltimore catechism taught by nuns who look like nuns.

We have nuns that look like nuns, meaning full habit and they also teach catechism from (gasp), the Baltimore catechism.

I once asked these wonderful group of woman if they get hot and if they ever are jealous of the Novus ordo nuns who dress in "regular" clothes and do you know what their reply was? They all said that wearing the full habit and traditional garb as all past nuns have, and the black which gets very hot is only a small sacrifice to pay for the suffering our Lord went through on calvary and his mother at the foot of the cross, and getting a bit hot in the summer is nothing as compared!

I once asked one of our full-habited, (black, dark grey and wool), Novus Ordo nuns if they got hot, (even here in Detroit it can get pretty hot in the summer-especially this summer), and how they managed. She didn't liken her suffering to the Blessed Mother or to our dear Savior, she simply and humbly stated that you get used to it.

When you talk to a Novus Ordo supporter or pastor, all they ever can rely on, cause they despise anything that is pre-councilar is JPII "Theology of the Body" or some other vague document that has a nice mix of conservatism and liberalism all packaged up nicely. So sad

Yes, it is indeed sad when a person paints with so broad a brush as you like to use. I do agree with you on this one point. The Novus Ordo Mass is what I think of as Mass-lite. I do believe it is valid, because the Church teaches that it is, and there are some things about it that I appreciate. Having said that, I admit most Catholics and their pastors who want the Novus Ordo in the vernacular only, do indeed seem to fear the Tridentine Mass. As to the documents of the Church, I doubt many of these lay Catholics understand what a pre-conciliar document is, much less if they agree with the document or not. And, those who do understand have not read the documents of Vatican II, certainly where the use of Latin and Gregorian Chant are concerned.

Most Catholics are used to the Novus Ordo Mass said in a language they can understand, and unfortunately, would feel like a fish out of water if they went to a Tridentine Mass. I wonder, though, what Christ wants of us most. Does he want us to leave the Church, to deride Her clergy because they do not live up to our standards; or, does He want us to stay by Her, with Her, in Her through all Her trials and tribulations?

25 posted on 08/14/2005 4:46:07 PM PDT by Diva
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: Diva

Diva

I was not upset. And please note that Latin is really not the issue with most conservatives/traditionalists (well maybe some). A Traditional priest said recently at a retreat that the traditional societies would take the "Old Tridentine rite" in the vernacular (as long as the ICEL had nothing to do with it!) than the New Mass in Latin, which the Pope is trying to do and really is not the issue. The issue is the words of consecration were changed, 70% of the prayers thrown out, etc etc

God bless you


26 posted on 08/15/2005 5:52:47 AM PDT by BulldogCatholic
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: BulldogCatholic
How can you defend this anti catholic doctrine the church teaches now? It deviates from everything the church taught for 1962 years. It is the church which has stopped being Catholic, not Traditionalists.

Once again, a Traditionalist is a Catholic in Union with Rome, who thinks that the implementation of those doctrines are lacking among local Ordinaries, and Pastors. A Traditionalist could never hold that the Novus Ordo is invalid, or the Church teaches error. Therefore you can't count yourself among them. (period)

Do we really want to start this again? Catholic is Catholic and means something specific; if you want to be in the SSPX(ish) camp you are welcome to do that. Please don't pretend to be Catholic, nor pretend that Catholics in union with Pope Benedict are not Catholic.
27 posted on 08/15/2005 8:26:45 AM PDT by Dominick ("Freedom consists not in doing what we like, but in having the right to do what we ought." - JP II)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: Dominick

Dominick

The question I always pose to those who throw the "schism" thing around is as follows, and I note you have placed much emphasis on the Bishops from another thread, is as follows:

If the Pope or for that matter tomorrow told you that he (she? soon to be?) told you to that Buddah had much to offer and as at Fatima where JPII allowed the Hindus to worship, your diocese as well as most other dioceses except for maybe 10% of the church's (which will still allow your Novus Ordo Mass but with "modifications") and you were to start incorporating some of the ways hindus, etc worship into your liturgy (and the Bishop can do what they want as we all know)...what would you do?

That is the same question that many Traditional Catholics were faced with after Vatican II and in the past 40 years. We have been told that we must worship like Protestants, only we are still going to call ourselves Catholics. No-you may have been able to sell that "obedience" line to the cafeteria catholics and the Kerry supporters who are Catholics (some 50% of catholics voted for the Pro abortion Kerry as well as Clinton). But it does not work on those that are real "Catholics" as handed down from the Apostles.


28 posted on 08/15/2005 9:58:51 AM PDT by BulldogCatholic
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: BulldogCatholic
If the Pope or for that matter tomorrow told you that he (she? soon to be?)

Not possible to ordain women. This is a non issue. Don't distract from the issue.

told you to that Buddah had much to offer


Once again we have a dearth of infallible documents that state Buddhism in not a salvific faith. We also have a statement from John Paul that Jesus is the only way to Salvation. Again, this is a non-issue.

and as at Fatima where JPII allowed the Hindus to worship,

Actually nobody allowed them to worship. The local Ordinary invited some Hindi people to come to a Church, and explained Fatima and our lady to them. He invited them to lay flowers to an Image of our Lady, as most Catholic Children do from time immemorial. John Paul II made an inquiry into this event, but in no way was contacted before hand. I think someone has been feeding you misinformation.

your diocese as well as most other dioceses except for maybe 10% of the church's (which will still allow your Novus Ordo Mass but with "modifications")

If you purpost to be Catholic, then it is our Novus Ordo. The GIRM provides instructions in order to better follow the Roman Rite Mass.

and you were to start incorporating some of the ways hindus, etc worship into your liturgy (and the Bishop can do what they want as we all know)...what would you do?

Since none of this is possible, as the objections and straw man argument's you put forth state, then I guess I can't answer you. It would be like asking you if gravity reversed and the Earth pushed everything away, then what would I do?

With the authority of the CHurch, the Holy See has made it clear what a schismatic act is. Clearly, if you decide the Mass is invalid unless you follow a narrowly concocted version of the Mass, as stated by schismatic Bishops, then you fall into schism. It isn't my job to tell you that you are in schism. I know what a schismatic act is, and by telling people that the Holy See has fallen away from the Faith, you declare to everyone that, according to then Cardinal Ratzinger's formula, you side with schismatics.

That is the same question that many Traditional Catholics were faced with after Vatican II and in the past 40 years. We have been told that we must worship like Protestants, only we are still going to call ourselves Catholics

You shouldn't include yourself in the Catholic camp, if you hold that the Holy See is no longer following God. I am a Catholic, and I have the privilege because I follow what Christ's Vicar teaches me about God, and the way I should worship Him.

You miss a big point here, the members of the SSPX are a Protestant movement as they attack the Pope, and Christ himself who put the Pope in the position. The Pope has the ability to singularly change the implementation of the Catholic faith, in accordance with the original deposit of Faith. Nothing in that deposit said anything about the Tridentine Mass or Novus Ordo. If it did, we would be using the Divine Liturgy which is much much older than Trent. Nothing in it said anyhting about what HDO we should have, those details are left to the Pope to decide for the benefit of the Faithful.

To say the Pope can't change what is in his power to change for the good of the Church, is to attack Christ's Authority itself.

No-you may have been able to sell that "obedience" line to the cafeteria catholics and the Kerry supporters who are Catholics (...) But it does not work on those that are real "Catholics" as handed down from the Apostles.

Thats is correct, the man who sits in Peter's Chair. I follow him, and the CINO people like Kerry and neo-Protestants like the SSPX, do not.
29 posted on 08/15/2005 11:13:25 AM PDT by Dominick ("Freedom consists not in doing what we like, but in having the right to do what we ought." - JP II)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: BulldogCatholic
the V2 church even had to retranslate the Bible as the DR bible was just not PC enough for them

This is so absurd. You obviously know nothing about the reasons for the production of the NAB.

Early in 1944, in conformity with the spirit of the encyclical, and with the encouragement of Archbishop Cicognani, Apostolic Delegate to the United States, the Bishops' Committee of the Confraternity of Christian Doctrine requested members of The Catholic Biblical Association of America to translate the sacred scriptures from the original languages or from the oldest extant form of the text, and to present the sense of the biblical text in as correct a form as possible. ...

The Books of Genesis to Ruth were first published in 1952; the Wisdom Books, Job to Sirach, in 1955; the Prophetic Books, Isaiah to Malachi, in 1961; and the books of Samuel to Maccabees in 1969. (Preface to the NAB Old Testament)

Note the dates; I'd be interested in your explanation of how the "V2 church" could be issuing translations in 1952.

30 posted on 08/15/2005 7:10:00 PM PDT by gbcdoj (Let us ask the Lord with tears, that according to his will so he would shew his mercy to us Jud 8:17)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: BulldogCatholic
The issue is the words of consecration were changed, 70% of the prayers thrown out, etc etc

You are speaking of the Roman Canon, what the Church now calls Eucharistic Prayer I. Yes, in English the translation is poor, in Latin, it is the same as it always has been. So, Latin really is the issue here. It is indeed unfortunate that the beautiful prayers at the beginning of the Mass were tossed out, I think it had more to do with laziness than anything else. Also, intellectuals often sell us regular folks short and assume we don't understand what's going on, they have to simplify things so we'll "get it."

One of the sadder things about the English Mass are the translations of the Collects. My understanding is that before the vernacular you could choose among several missals for the translation you preferred, from very erudite to the more pedestrian. Even the less learned translations I've read are vastly superior to the bland and tasteless ICEL translations that must be used for the vernacular Mass today. But, I do appreciate the fact that there is a clear Epiklesis in Eucahristic Prayers II and III. I also like being able to say the Lord's Prayer.

31 posted on 08/15/2005 8:11:57 PM PDT by Diva
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: BulldogCatholic

Is there a picture of it anywhere?


32 posted on 08/15/2005 8:51:26 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Antioch

BTTT!


33 posted on 08/15/2005 8:53:43 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: BulldogCatholic

Sorry, I didn't scroll down enough.


34 posted on 08/15/2005 8:54:08 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: BulldogCatholic
There are many threads about seminarians, and yes, the numbers are growing.

Cardinal Arinze - "Youth will embrace religious life with right role models"

Today's seminarians reflect growing trend

Number of Seminarians Increases - Please Decipher This!!!!

In Seminaries, New Ways for a New Generation

Seminary Springtime: Father Darrin Connall s Big Success

EVIDENCE GROWS OF DIRECT DISOBEDIENCE TO VATICAN IN MAJOR AMERICAN SEMINARIES

Pope to Church: Risky Seminarians Must Go

Priests Down, Seminarians Up

U.S. Priests and seminarians survey: more vocations in orthodox dioceses

Vatican Announces Surge in Seminaries during JPII Pontificate

Seminary Reform Needed in Wake of Sex Abuse Study ["the crisis in the Church is ... homosexuality"]

Homosexuals in seminaries? The latest.....

Priests 'In Orgy' at Seminary

Bishop urges gay ban in clergy; presses for overhaul in screening priests

A New Breed of Priest

AUSTRIAN SEMINARY SHUT DOWN FOR PROBE

Seminarians Show Support For Celibacy

556 Reasons for Hope [Seminarians Support Celibacy]

No Shortage of Vocations From Conservative Parishes

Oakland seminary housing sex offender priests

Phoenix bishop to helm Priestly Formation Committee [of USCCB]

Vatican Firms up Plans for U.S. Seminary Visitation in 2005

SIBLING VOCATIONS - Early calls led two sisters to same religious order

On the admission of homosexuals to seminaries

Catholic priests demand the right to marry

New Start For Austrian Seminary

Disciples of Pope John Paul (Faculty of Gregorian University Gripe About Piety of New Seminarians)

New Priests in U.S.: Older, and More From Abroad (Survey Tracks Trends Since 1998)

U.S. seminarians welcome Pope Benedict XVI

Vatican review of seminaries to raise issue of gay priests

Some Decry Retirement Despite Priest Shortage

The Priesthood Ordination Class of 2005 “People would be surprised to know that I…”

(Catholic) Seminarians Double In 25 Years

Pope's death inspires would-be priests

Changes Add Up for Priesthood

Irish Bishops Apologize to Seminary Whistle-Blower

SIGNAL CALLING - UB quarterback foregoes family and career to train for priesthood in Rome

Pop Culture Heros Help Recruit Priests

35 posted on 08/15/2005 8:57:55 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: bornacatholic

**I thought we Christians would be known for our living our lives in joy in Christ.**

Thank you!


36 posted on 08/15/2005 8:59:51 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: BulldogCatholic
Now this is my kind of inspiration.
37 posted on 08/15/2005 9:02:08 PM PDT by murphE (These are days when the Christian is expected to praise every creed but his own. --G.K. Chesterton)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: gbcdoj

Your dates are correct. I have a New American Bible, and it is older than Vatican II!


38 posted on 08/15/2005 9:02:24 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: BulldogCatholic
Dashing young priests turn heads at Youth Day

Cross-refrence link

39 posted on 08/19/2005 7:26:06 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

Shall we try to be polite? There is no reason to call people names, regardless of their choices. Show you are above that, and remember that Our Lord condemned the arrogant above all others.

I just read through this topic, and I realized that few people recognize the benefits of a 'cool' image for the Church. Is an image or technique such as this bad if it publicizes the positive aspects of the church? To the contrary, I say that reaching people is what our faith is about. If we need to do that by using tradition melded harmlessly with the society we live in, does that not simply serve to emphasize the command given us in Matthew 28? Does that not simply help us make disciples of all nations--including the one we live in?

I look forward to hearing your opinions, preferably without the addition of unconstructive condemnation.
40 posted on 09/16/2005 10:01:52 PM PDT by Terminus (Simultaneously Conservative and Tolerant)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson