(Vanity) Seen or heard news on a Virgin Mary statue in Califorina crying tears of blood?

[Rosary]

What's the story on this anyone have a link on this?

[Diego1618]

How do you know the saints don't hear our prayers?

Ecclesiastes 9:5, [For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing]

[gscc]

There is obviously a great doctrinal difference, however the discussion has been rather civil until this remark.

[franky]

http://bav.vatican.va/en/v_home_bav/home_bav.shtml

Try the Vatican Library for some historical background. You might be suprised.

[Zuriel]

**How about those post baptismal sins?**

Paul said: I die daily.

"Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus," (does buried with him in baptism ring a bell? That's part of the rebirth.) "that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body". 2 Cor. 4:10

The remission of sins that takes place in Jesus name baptism, will continue to do the job as long as that soul wants it to, which is by faithfulness in repentance, and all Godliness.

[Full Court]

He can tell you who those twenty-four elders are.

She

[gscc]

So you do not ask saints or Mary to intercede for you when it is plain in Scripture that Jesus is the sole intercessor with the Father? You just pray with them not to them?

[Full Court]

There is obviously a great doctrinal difference, however the discussion has been rather civil until this remark.

yes, I have quite enjoyed it. I always like discovering what and why others believe what they do.

[Full Court]

Please understand that you are here directly accusing our faith.

It's like the elephant and the five blind men. I really don't see it as accusing your faith. I see it as defending THE faith. :-)

Jude 1:3  ¶Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation,
it was needful for me to write unto you,
and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith
which was once delivered unto the saints.

[Full Court]

The remission of sins that takes place in Jesus name baptism

Are you UPC?

[scottro]

Wow ,that was pretty impressive! I guess He doesn't need my heart,since I have all that to fall back on!

[Zuriel]

**But - we do not believe that once saved, always saved.**

Nor do I, in the way I think you are explaining it.

The little word 'if', found throughout the epistles pretty much hammers that man-made doctrine.

God saves to the uttermost, and none can pluck any out of his hand, but some choose to turn from Him after knowing him. Five foolish, five wise.

[Knitting A Conundrum]

Isn't interesting how some people demand that you respond just the way they want you to, and demand that you not use resources or other things like that.

And we're supposed to be happy with that.

And they come here on purpose to tell us our faith is sinful, wrong and not true, that we worship what we know we don't, that we don't understand the Bible.

And we're supposed to be happy with that.

And they pursue us in ways that if it was not taking place on a forum, but at work or at school, it would be stalking.

And we're supposed to be happy with that.

It's not like they are actually interested in what we believe, and are trying to learn, understand or share. They are here to badger us about what we believe, hijack our threads, demand that we answer them according to their definitions.

And once again we're supposed to be happy with that.

Interesting viewpoint.

[Diego1618]

You can play around with Rev. 5:8 all you want. But its still there and will be there tomorrow morning. Even if we accept your limited view of who the twenty-four elders are -just the Apostles and Patriarchs of the Twelve Tribes- we still have Scripture showing TWENTY-FOUR INDIVIDUAL HUMAN BEINGS WHO SUPPOSEDLY ARE "DEAD," ACCORDING TO YOU, WHO ARE OFFERING THE PRAYERS OF THE SAINTS ON EARTH TO GOD.

The 24 elders are spirit beings....not humans. If you notice in verse 11 there are thousands upon thousands of Angelic beings encircling the throne, the four living creatures and the elders. The elders are just that...elder Angelic beings.

John 3:13 says, [No man has ascended up to heaven.....] Upon the return of Christ to this Earth, those who are his will be given immortality then.....not before, I Corinthians 15:23.

[Zuriel]

**Are you UPC?**

Independent Apostolic. Lots of friends in the UPCI and ALJC, though.

[AlguyA]

O.K., one last time. When Catholics "pray to the saints" we are not worshipping them. We are asking them to pray for us. In some formal prayers, we will include words honoring them. But the thrust of each and every prayer is for them to pray for us. Thus, those 'vials' are the answer to our request. They are the saints in heaven turning to Our Lord and saying, 'these our are brothers, have mercy on them.'(Worthy is the Lamb.) In a nutshell.

Usually, the argument here isn't over whether we can pray for one another or ask others to pray for us. The real issue is whether the saints in heaven are aware of us and, thus, CAN pray for us. Others have given you copious Scripture indicating the saints are aware of us. I've given you scripture showing their not only aware of us, but can and do answer our 'requests' and pray for us.

Rev. 5:8 is only a problem if your Protestant. To a Catholic, its clear and relatively straight forward.

Most of the problem lies in the rather limited ways in which Protestants worship. Indeed, I've heard many Protestants speak of 'praise and worship' as if these are the same things.

As others have pointed out, to Catholics, worship is much more than this, it is sacrificial in nature -a joining of ourselves with Christ by 'picking up our crosses and following Him.' And the high point of our worship is the Mass, or Sacrament of Holy Communion.

Hence, when you here 'praying to saints' you think we are worshipping them. To us, though, they are created beings, infinitly less than God, even the Blessed Virgin, herself.

Indeed, I've often found it arrogant that so many Protestants are just certain God will hear their prayers for me, but not the prayers for me offered by His own Mother. But I just repeat the words of Our Lord on the Cross, "Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do." And trust and hope that God will save you anyway.-)