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To: Forest Keeper; HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg; Campion; bornacatholic
But God hates sin

You are confusing anthropomorphism of the Scripture with God who cannot be defined, described, painted, measured, limited, etc. but Who, because of our limited senses and abilties, is described in human terms.

PS I am waiting for someone to say "aha, gotcha! You paint icons, and bow to idols." He, he.

50 posted on 01/02/2006 12:33:13 PM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50
You are confusing anthropomorphism of the Scripture with God who cannot be defined, described, painted, measured, limited, etc....

So, when I say that God hates sin, or that God sent His wrath onto Sodom, etc., those are anthropomorphic and in error. However, when you say that God loves us, that is completely different?

57 posted on 01/02/2006 1:04:22 PM PST by Forest Keeper
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To: kosta50; Forest Keeper; HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg; Campion; bornacatholic; blue-duncan; Gamecock; ...
This is my first post in this thread of 9200. I have read the "treatise[s]" of Eramus and Luther and several hundred posts. I must say, that in all this time and work, there is still no resemblance of my understanding of the Gospel of Jesus Christ from either side of the persuasion, though some parts rang chords of truth within me.

But, all in all, the truth, as concerning free-will, works of salvation, and the grace so abundantly given, as I humbly understand it, seems to be independent from these two arguments. Moreover, both arguments seem to obscure what is reasonably simple in my mind and the author of this report appears bias in his reporting both sides.

Notwithstanding, there is a saying which leads into a very small portion of my understanding of these important subjects:

All Truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself; as all intelligence also, otherwise there is no existence.

As we know that God places all things in there proper sphere (hence, the grace of God) that does not preclude Him from controlling every aspect thereof. We are free agents to act upon those things that are placed in the universe to be acted upon. Those actions are expected by God to be done in thanksgiving, with prudence, and out of love and genuine concern for our fellow brothers and sisters.

Now, to act for ourselves does not preclude us from certain judgment of those things we do. As we may be free to act upon things, there are laws we must follow if we are to have a reasonable expectation of foregoing certain effects. We may be free to choose our destinies, but we are not free to choose the consequences of such decisions that would violate the laws of existence and the attributes of character that fosters that existence.

Of course, we have free will. And we are free to "work out our salvation" as it pertains to the formula, which is in faith. Faith is simply:

Belief (hope) + works (service) = faith.

One usually works toward fulfilling the thing he hopes for, at least within the talents and powers that he has been given. But even those talents and powers are for naught unless he is willing to nurture them through his own agency. Of course, it stands to reason, as the author of James attests, that without "works," his belief, or his hope is nothing but a mere wish, or "dead" at worse.

But that is only one view of the formula of faith. The other, as we can suppose, suggests that nobody would ever work or provide a service against ones belief or ones will.

To spare all of you a long discourse, I think it sufficient to deduce that if we are created in the image and likeness of God, then we must be free, just as He is free. If we are not free, then God is not free. If God is not free, then He is not God. And if He is not God, then we are not. We may not be able to save ourselves from the full effects of Justice, for "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God;" and we can thank our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ for that. But, there are some things for which, within our power as has been granted by God and nurtured through our righteousness, that we can do. And our Father in Heaven expects us to be stewards of that power and to use it as we journey toward becoming one with Him.

Sure, all things exist by virtue of God's grace. But some of those things are of a sphere of intelligence by which it is given power to act for itself and to act upon those things which are designed to be acted upon. And it is only by virtue of obedience to the laws that constitute progress toward becoming one with Jesus Christ that we are free to act for ourselves; to choose freedom over captivity; light over darkness; happiness over misery. Without freewill, how is one even able to choose his allegiance to the One who created him? And if I am to be saved against my will, then what is the purpose for my existence?

9,181 posted on 07/03/2006 5:57:11 AM PDT by Arrowhead
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