How Tradition Gave Us the Bible

Assoc of Students at Catholic Colleges ^ | Mark Shea

[TexConfederate1861]

Until 1054 AD Christianity and the Catholic Faith were the same.

[AnAmericanMother]

Yippee! It does no harm to Holy Mother Church, who knows, maybe they'll learn something . . . I always learn something new on these threads.

. . . thanks, y'all.

[whispering out loud]

"But, you are right on one point. Then we will see face to face, and know as we are known. Until then, we should diligently apply ourselves to prayer and study."

We can agree on this. My only point on this thread, has been that neither the scriptures nor Christianity itself are exclusive to catholicism. I believe there is plenty of room in heaven for catholics and protestants alike, provided that they have surrendered their heart to Christ.

[TexConfederate1861]

I was refering to the completed canon.....

[Buggman]

You're missing the point...we're not bowing down to the statue, we're engaged in prayer.

Does the prayer possibly end with this?

HAIL, HOLY QUEEN, Mother of Mercy, our life, our sweetness and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve; to thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley of tears. Turn then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us, and after this our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary!

Pray for us, O Holy Mother of God.
That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.

Let us pray. O GOD, whose only begotten Son, by His life, death, and resurrection, has purchased for us the rewards of eternal life, grant, we beseech Thee, that meditating upon these mysteries of the Most Holy Rosary of the Blessed Virgin Mary, we may imitate what they contain and obtain what they promise, through the same Christ Our Lord. Amen.

Not that it matters. Catholics pray while bowing to statues, a practice the Bible specifically prohibits--and all the distinctions in the world will not change that.

Do the members of whatever odd sect to which you belong not kneel when in prayer?

Yes. But not in the direction of a graven image. Heck, we have a genuine Torah scroll, a Holocaust survivor, in our synagogue. We believe that the Torah symbolically represents Yeshua, the Living Torah and Word of God. (I can explain the symbolism, but it's beside the point.) We still do not pray bowing to the Torah, nor to the Menorah, nor any other created thing.

God did not spend 2000 years beating the idea that bowing to statues was okay out of Israel just to reinstitute the practice after the Coming of the Messiah.

Do you not grasp the simple concept of intercessory prayer?

I understand it just fine. Do you not grasp the simple concept that this:

You shall not make to yourselves any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in the heavens above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow yourself down to them, nor serve them.

forbids this:

God tore 5/6ths of the kingdom away from the heirs of Solomon for his sin in putting graven images in the courts of God's Temple. Why don't you think He would be equally wroth at you putting up graven images in the courts of His Church?

[AnAmericanMother]

I think that that is agreed upon by everyone.

I'm sure, as C.S. Lewis said, when we get to heaven "there will be surprises."

[Buggman]

Of course, he neglects to mention that "Catholic" meant quite a different thing in Cyprian's time than it does today.

[whispering out loud]

please realize my friend that I have very few problems with Catholic Theology, some of these being too much emphasis upon Mary, and the "saints", as well as some of the requirements for works of atonement.

[phatus maximus]

Greetings...I see it is you who stole my eggo...sorry, really lame, but it popped in my head...

I have a question on your post...What, if any, Tradition, big T, cannot be found in scripture that is essential for salvation?

Respectfully in Christ.

I forgive you for stealing my eggo by the way ;-)

[Pyro7480]

Unless you have video showing that they are bowing TO the statue, that isn't a good example of a pic supporting your view. If there were a Bible in front of them instead of the statue, and knew nothing of the group, what conclusion would you draw? Possibly a similar one.

[Pyro7480]

as well as some of the requirements for works of atonement

Huh???

[whispering out loud]

paying penance, hail maries, ......

[TexConfederate1861]

Typical Protestant Ignorance.

They are not worshipping the stone figure. The are venerating the person it represents, in this case, The Mother of God.

By the way, God had the Hebrews put figures of winged Cherubim on the Ark of the Covenant.

[AnAmericanMother]

You can, I hope, grasp the difference between bowing down TO a "graven image", and WORSHIPPING it -- and kneeling in intercessory prayer?

There are many occasions on which people kneel or bow to honor others (including at Cotillion for heaven's sake.)

Worship is clearly reserved by Catholic teaching for God alone. The Virgin Mary, as the Queen Mother, is in a special position both in Hebrew tradition and in the Church. To her is given particular honor, or dulia. To other saints, we give honor merely.

If you'll read that lovely "Hail, Holy Queen" again, carefully, and not through the eyes of Catholic hatred, you'll see that we don't PRAY until we address God in the concluding section. Before that, we address the Blessed Virgin as a dear friend and adoptive mother who will pray FOR us (did you never call your spouse "my sweet life" or "my precious love"?) "The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much" -- James 5:16 -- how much more so the prayers of the Lady who was "full of grace" and carried God in her body for nine months, and had the signal honor of rearing and teaching him until his public ministry began.

[whispering out loud]

The scriptures say to repent of our sins, also to confess our sins. Nowhere do they say to pay for our sins, nor work to atone for them.

[TexConfederate1861]

On the contrary, I specified that there is a difference.
Check out the Orthodox Church....it is the closest to what existed then.

[TexConfederate1861]

On the contrary, I specified that there is a difference.
Check out the Orthodox Church....it is the closest to what existed then.

[Pyro7480]

If human justice requires that an offense done to another be repaired, how much more so does God's justice require that we repair the offense against God. That's the purpose of doing penances, whether voluntary, or given to a penitent after Confession.

[whispering out loud]

the scriptures didn't say don't worship graven images, it said do not make to yourself graven images. The cherub on the ark were a direct command from God, as a symbol on the ark. The statues of Mary are Idols set alone, "not commanded, nor part of a relic"

[Pyro7480]

The scriptures say to repent of our sins, also to confess our sins. Nowhere do they say to pay for our sins, nor work to atone for them.

You have heard of the account of what the people of Ninevah did after Jonah preached to them.