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Baptist controversy has tongues tied(Don't ask\Don't tell?)
DFW.com ^ | 3-11-6 | Jim Jones

Posted on 03/11/2006 5:42:09 AM PST by WKB

Baptists are caught up in controversy again.

This time conservative Southern Baptists are in contention over a new rule approved by the International Mission Board that disqualifies future missionary candidates who admit to speaking in a charismatic "private prayer language."

Proponents say the new regulation is needed to emphasize Baptists' long-held position against charismatic practices such as praying and speaking in unknown tongues, or "glossalalia," a practice popular among Pentecostals and other groups.

The irony is that Jerry Rankin, the leader of the Richmond, Va.-based foreign mission board, has long used a charismatic prayer language in his private prayers. So, could the man who runs the worldwide organization of 5,000 missionaries be disqualified under the rule? Not at all. The new regulation is not retroactive.

The mission board already prohibits missionaries from publicly speaking in tongues, but in November added the regulation disqualifying new missionary candidates who, like Rankin, admit to having a private prayer language.

Future candidates who use a private prayer language also have a right to appeal to try to convince screening committees that their practice doesn't violate Baptist policy.

Rankin said in a press conference with Baptist editors that he's used a private prayer language for 30 years but doesn't encourage others to do it. Rankin strongly opposes publicly speaking in tongues.

One mission board trustee, the Rev. Wade Burleson, pastor of Emmanuel Baptist Church in Enid, Okla., has led the opposition to the new private prayer language rule and believes it may have been meant to discredit Rankin. Burleson criticized the new rule as narrow and restrictive.

"For the record, I do not have the gift of tongues," he said on his Web site. "I never have had it and I don't desire it, but I sure don't mind going to Africa and serving on a mission field with someone that prays in tongues in their prayer closet."

David Rogers, a Baptist missionary and son of the late Rev. Adrian Rogers, an icon among conservative Baptists, agreed. He said in a letter to Burleson that he doesn't use a private prayer language but works with many missionaries who do.

The Rev. Tom Hatley, chairman of the mission board, this week said trustees thought the rules were needed to address some problems with charismatic practices in Baptist missions in some parts of the world, particularly South America. He doesn't think the rules were meant to target Rankin.

"One of the reasons it hasn't come faster is that trustees knew Jerry Rankin had a private prayer language and the rule might be wrongfully perceived as trying to hurt him," said Hatley, pastor of Immanuel Baptist Church in Rogers, Ark.

Hatley, a native of Fort Worth who grew up in Glen Rose, sent out an open letter this week to pastors urging them to study the proposals and offer their views by e-mail. He included position papers quoting the late Rev. W.A. Criswell, longtime pastor of First Baptist Church of Dallas, and Paige Patterson, president of Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Fort Worth, as critics of charismatic practices.

"Most pastors and theologians among Southern Baptists of recent decades and of today regard the charismatic movement as divisive, encouraging spiritual pride, and stressing minor gifts out of proportion to biblical evidence," the paper states.

Burleson has said he opposes the new rule on his widely read Web site, www.wadeburleson.com. The trustees adopted, then rescinded at Hatley's request, a motion that the Southern Baptist Convention remove Burleson as a trustee.

Central to the controversy are different interpretations of the New Testament. The Book of Acts tells of the Holy Spirit coming down on the Day of Pentecost "like a rushing mighty wind." It says cloven tongues like fire appeared over Jesus' followers and they began to speak in other tongues. Non-Christians from many nations heard the story of Christ in their own language and scores were converted to the new faith.

Southern Baptists generally have taught that the event in Acts was a one-time miracle related to building up of the early church and that the tongues mentioned were then-known languages.

But Pentecostals and many charismatic Baptists, Catholics, Episcopalians and independent Christian groups say they experience their own New Testament-style Pentecost today. They believe the Holy Spirit comes over them, enabling them to speak a spiritual language and drawing them closer to God.


TOPICS: Charismatic Christian; Evangelical Christian
KEYWORDS: charismatics; jibberjabber; sbc; superstitions
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To: WKB

It says that when that which is perfect, meaning the Bible, is finished, then revelatory gifts i.e. tongues will be taken back.


61 posted on 03/11/2006 2:44:44 PM PST by Commander8 (Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth? Galatians 4:16)
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To: WKB

Shut up and have a refreshing glass of powdered beverage.


62 posted on 03/11/2006 2:54:50 PM PST by Larry Lucido
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To: Paloma_55

Absolutely.

The main point of language is to pass information to others by communicating. Speaking in tongues in public and not being understood is not communication. It is not a miracle. It is a farcical display.

That being said, one man speaking in his own language to God is not "speaking in tongues." God understands what he is saying so it shouldn't be an issue.


63 posted on 03/11/2006 3:10:28 PM PST by stands2reason
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To: RoadTest

It suggests speaking in toungues, which was demostrated at pentecost, but it doesn't support a 'private prayer language.'


64 posted on 03/11/2006 3:14:09 PM PST by Bear_Slayer (When liberty is outlawed only outlaws will have liberty)
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To: Pablo64
There is no such 'private prayer language' in the bible.

Speaking in tongues? yes. In accordance with God's word, especially, but there is nothing to support some private language between a man and his God.

It hokey hogwash by over enthused, misled christians.

65 posted on 03/11/2006 3:17:31 PM PST by Bear_Slayer (When liberty is outlawed only outlaws will have liberty)
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To: AlGone2001
"Anyone who claims to speak in tongues, and makes unintelligible sounds, is either faking it, or possessed by something other than the spirit of God."

Does that line up with this passage?:

1 Corinthians 14:2

For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit.

Depends on which part of the Bible you read I guess?

Acts 2:1 When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place.

Acts 2:2 Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting.

Acts 2:3 They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them.

Acts 2:4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues[a] as the Spirit enabled them.

Acts 2:5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven.

Acts 2:6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking in his own language.
66 posted on 03/11/2006 5:14:28 PM PST by Paloma_55 (Which part of "Common Sense" do you not understand???)
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To: hindsfeetnhighplaces
Check this out

Not mocking you... I just read a different passage to come to the conclusion I did.
67 posted on 03/11/2006 5:18:17 PM PST by Paloma_55 (Which part of "Common Sense" do you not understand???)
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To: zipp_city
people calling themselves Babtist have been confused ever sence.

If I were one of them I'd be confused, too, especially if that's what they were really calling themselves. I've heard of Baptists but never Babtists until now.

68 posted on 03/11/2006 7:01:10 PM PST by Alex Murphy (Colossians 4:5)
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To: Bear_Slayer
"...but there is nothing to support some private language between a man and his God."

Actually, there is, but it looks like you've already made up your mind and don't want to be convinced, so that's ok. Praying in tongues is not a salvation issue anyway; it's one of the gifts of the Spirit, and even St. Paul said there were other gifts that he felt we should ask God for first.

The Bible says that when we pray in an unknown tongue (or language) we edify ourselves (build ourselves up). This is not the kind of building ourselves up to puff up our egos, it is a building up of our faith.

Praying in tongues is the enabling of our spirit by the Holy Spirit to do something that is not comprehensible to our natural mind. It requires us to put aside our "logic and wisdom" and let our spiritual side connect with the Spirit of God.

This operation of the gift of tongues is different than being able to speak to someone from a foreign land and have them hear you in their own language. It is different from the speaking in tongues that is accompanied by an interpretation and is meant for the body of believers. All of these are manifestations of the gift of speaking in tongues, and all of them have their proper place and usage, and are backed up by Scripture.

I find for most people, the whole issue of speaking or praying in tongues is a personal preference issue. Kind of like some people like chocolate ice cream, some like strawberry. Me, I like vanilla. It's all still ice cream. If you don't have a preference for the gift of tongues in your walk with the Lord, then you are not likely to seek out that gift. You may operate in other gifts of the Spirit, and God may even have built you up in those gifts more than most. My point would be that I would be careful about calling someone's personal, spiritual experiences with God "hogwash" just because you don't have a spiritual understanding of it, or maybe don't even want to.

69 posted on 03/12/2006 6:02:40 AM PST by Pablo64 ("Everything I say is fully substantiated by my own opinion.")
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To: aimhigh
Fact is tongues were a sign to the Jew (unbelievers) not believers Tongues have two uses, one as a sign and the other as a gift. Tongues are a sign to unbelievers, yet 1 Cor 14:26 tells us to bring tongues to a church service. 1 Cor 14:22 he says that prophecy is not for unbelievers but for believers. Yet in 1 Cor 14:23-25, the unbeliever is repulsed by tongues and converted by prophecy. Interesting twist.

No, the unbeliever would be unconverted by tongues if he did not understand that particular tongue.

That is why a interpreter was necessary.

However, if an unbeliever came in when prophecy (for the purpose of edification) was going on, he would benefit from that.

Also, tongues were to be given in order, so the unbeliever would not consider the church in a state of confusion.

In conclusion, even when tongues was in operation it was considered the least of all the gifts.

70 posted on 03/12/2006 6:13:23 AM PST by fortheDeclaration (Gal. 4:16)
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To: fortheDeclaration
In conclusion, even when tongues was in operation it was considered the least of all the gifts.

Yes, the least, but even the least of the gifts from our loving God shouldn't be impuned.

71 posted on 03/12/2006 7:48:17 AM PST by aimhigh
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To: Pablo64
Actually, there is, but it looks like you've already made up your mind and don't want to be convinced, so that's ok.

I've already made up my mind because the bible does not support, and actually discourages, ecstatic babblings. Coupled with christian maturity, I refuse to dishonor God by babbling at him in gibberish. If He really is God, and he is omniscient, He does not require or need me to babble ecstatically at Him.

Praying in tongues is not a salvation issue anyway; it's one of the gifts of the Spirit,

Praying in tongues is not only NOT a salvation issue, it's not even a biblical issue. Do you mean speaking in tongues? I spoke in tongues once, in Mexico. I spoke english and a mexican national spoke spanish. We both understood each other. it greatly increased my faith. However, I've never prayed in tongues. There is no such biblical idea and God does not needed it.

The Bible says that when we pray in an unknown tongue (or language) we edify ourselves (build ourselves up). This is not the kind of building ourselves up to puff up our egos, it is a building up of our faith.

First: The bible, in I Cor 14:, says "speak" not "pray".

Second: Paul is using sarcasm. Gifts are to be used to build up others in the church, they are not for building up one's self. That idea is anathema to the bible.

Last: They were originally intended to demonstrate to the jews of the diaspora, that God was doing a new thing.

Praying in tongues is the enabling of our spirit by the Holy Spirit to do something that is not comprehensible to our natural mind. It requires us to put aside our "logic and wisdom" and let our spiritual side connect with the Spirit of God.

God desires to be worhsipped in spirit and in truth. It is impossible to worship Him apart from understanding. The word "logic" comes from the greek logos.

Isaiah 43:10

Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servants whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

The idea is that people will know and understand. Any religion can offer ecstatic babbling, based on emotionalism and apart from any truth or logic, but Jehovah is the only God that offers truth and understanding. To babble ecstatically is silly and childish at best -- idolatry at worst.

This operation of the gift of tongues is different than being able to speak to someone from a foreign land and have them hear you in their own language. It is different from the speaking in tongues that is accompanied by an interpretation and is meant for the body of believers. All of these are manifestations of the gift of speaking in tongues, and all of them have their proper place and usage, and are backed up by Scripture.

You make a distinction between praying in tongues and the biblical use of speaking in tongues. You then state that it is supported biblically. It's not and I can't seem to locate it in my bible after innumerable, careful, prayerful study of it.

I find for most people, the whole issue of speaking or praying in tongues is a personal preference issue. . . . My point would be that I would be careful about calling someone's personal, spiritual experiences with God "hogwash" just because you don't have a spiritual understanding of it, or maybe don't even want to.

I have a mature, biblical understanding of the ecstatic babbling that charismatics perform and pretend is biblical. I won't we swayed, not because I am some egotistical narrow minded fundamentalist, but because ecstatic babbling is unbiblical and hogwash.

If you were more mature or less stubborn, you might realize your biblical error.

72 posted on 03/12/2006 8:22:50 AM PST by Bear_Slayer (When liberty is outlawed only outlaws will have liberty)
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To: Bear_Slayer
Sorry, but I can see that your mind is made up and that you have decided in your infinite wisdom to label things you can't or don't want to understand as "ecstatic babblings". You seem to really like that particular phrase. Good to know that you have such a "mature" understanding of scripture. Maybe you can hire yourself out to God as a consultant.

You claim there is no Biblical support, yet every time anyone has offered it on this thread you have dismissed it because it doesn't fit with your personal theology, so you therefore choose to ignore it.

1Cor.14:2 says, "For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. For no one hears, but in spirit he speaks mysteries." You want to try and make the distinction between speaking and praying, but when you pray to God, are you not speaking to Him? What do you think it is if not speaking to Him? Duuhhh!!

But I guess if that makes you comfortable to try and split hairs like the Pharisees were fond of doing, then go ahead. Just don't tell me about your "mature biblical understanding" when all you do is label, ridicule, name call, and display your close-mindedness.

Yeah, you've got it all figured out.

73 posted on 03/12/2006 11:47:18 AM PST by Pablo64 ("Everything I say is fully substantiated by my own opinion.")
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To: Pablo64
Sorry, but I can see that your mind is made up

Yeah, I thought I was pretty clear about that. Biblical maturity forces me to recognize that "praying in toungues" is exactly what Christ forbade and what Paul discourages.

and that you have decided in your infinite wisdom

I never said that I had infinite wisdom. Now who is ridiculing?

to label things you can't or don't want to understand as "ecstatic babblings".

As I said previously, I have studied the bible numerous times, both carefully and prayerfully. Why is it that you insist that I can't or won't understand something that I have admittedly studied very carefully. Is that you displaying your close-mindedness?You seem to really like that particular phrase.

I like it because it is accurate.

Good to know that you have such a "mature" understanding of scripture.

Sacasm. Ridiculing. Pot meet kettle.

Maybe you can hire yourself out to God as a consultant.

More of the same and without substance.

you're laughable.

1Cor.14:2 says, "For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. For no one hears, but in spirit he speaks mysteries."

Paul makes a distinction that speaking in tongues does not edify others. Only God can understand. But God being omniscient already understands. Paul is being sarcastic in this sentence. It is only logical.

You want to try and make the distinction between speaking and praying,

I make a distinction because Paul makes a distinction. The word says "speak", not "pray".

but when you pray to God, are you not speaking to Him?

Yes. but the word specifically says, "speaking in tongues, " not "praying in tongues" Why do you insist on changing God's word?

What do you think it is if not speaking to Him? Duuhhh!!

More of your own ridiculing? God is omniscient. He does not need you to babble incoherently. It does you, others and Him no good.

Just don't tell me about your "mature biblical understanding" when all you do is label, ridicule, name call, and display your close-mindedness. Again -- Pot meet kettle. You're laughable.

Yeah, you've got it all figured out.

If you are referring to the issues of "tongues" then yes I do. If you were more mature and less stubborn you would also.

74 posted on 03/12/2006 6:03:44 PM PST by Bear_Slayer (When liberty is outlawed only outlaws will have liberty)
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To: aimhigh
In conclusion, even when tongues was in operation it was considered the least of all the gifts. Yes, the least, but even the least of the gifts from our loving God shouldn't be impuned.

There are a number of gifts no longer in operation also, such as healing and prophecy (foretelling the future).

Tongues served its purpose and is no longer a legimate gift.

75 posted on 03/12/2006 11:00:55 PM PST by fortheDeclaration (Gal. 4:16)
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To: Bear_Slayer
Ok, one last time, and then I'm done with you.

Since you're so hung up on thinking that I've blurred the difference (a difference you want to make) between "speaking" in tongues, and "praying" in tongues, let's take a look at 1 Cor. 14:14-15: "For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unproductive. What should I do then? I will pray with the spirit, but I will pray with the mind also; I will sing praise with the spirit, but I will sing praise with the mind also."

Paul is laying out his point in the classic style that he was well trained in; he lays out his case with all the sides, and then presents his question. He then goes on to provide the answer. This is the style. Paul does not use sarcasm, as you've wrongly asserted. He was trained as a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee, and studied not only under the best of the Jewish teachers, but he also was familiar with the classic style of debate since he was also a Roman citzen by birth and he received the benefits of a classical education as well.

So first, he acknowledges that when he prays in a tongue, it is his spirt praying. But he wants to point out that this, by itself, is insufficient - "...my spirit prays but my mind is unproductive." Then he poses the question, what am I to do?

Next, he lays out the answer: "I will pray with the spirit, but I will pray with the mind also." Paul doesn't throw away praying in a tongue, he demonstrates the need for the complete package, that balance that provides the greatest benefit. He says we should do both.

Never in Paul's writing does he use sarcasm. You have wrongly interpreted his style as sarcasm because you don't understand (or don't want to) the classic style of presenting evidence for an arguement that Paul was so well trained in. You assert that "It's only logical."

As for my tone of sarcasm in responding to you? That was absolutely intended. You vainly imagine that I "unwittingly" got "caught" using the very thing I was accusing you of. It was completely intentional. I figured that it was the only way I might be able to get through the arrogance and pride that was oozing from your smug ramblings.

One last note: Christian maturity is self-evident, not self-proclaimed.

76 posted on 03/13/2006 5:52:48 AM PST by Pablo64 ("Everything I say is fully substantiated by my own opinion.")
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To: fortheDeclaration
Tongues served its purpose and is no longer a legimate gift. There are no scriptures to back that up.

Poor conjecture based on misinterpretations of scritpure.

Romans 11:29 "For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable."

Tongues won't pass away until knowledge passes away, and that won't occur until Christ returns.

1 Cor 1:7 "Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed."

77 posted on 03/13/2006 7:05:46 AM PST by aimhigh
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To: Paloma_55
I didn't say you were mocking ME. I know you probably meant it to be funny but I assure it it is not: [quote]All I have to say about this is "mglmptbyy wwaaatrayala noballalto ugaferamaeeta"[/quote] See in particular number 4: [quote] mock·er·y (mŏk'ə-rē) pronunciation n., pl. -ies. 1. Scornfully contemptuous ridicule; derision. 2. A specific act of ridicule or derision. 3. An object of scorn or ridicule: made a mockery of the rules. 4. A false, derisive, or impudent imitation: The trial was a mockery of justice. 5. Something ludicrously futile or unsuitable: The few packages of food seemed a mockery in the face of such enormous destitution.[/quote]
78 posted on 03/13/2006 10:37:53 AM PST by hindsfeetnhighplaces
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To: hindsfeetnhighplaces

rats...I am never going to get the hang of HTML.


79 posted on 03/13/2006 10:45:42 AM PST by hindsfeetnhighplaces
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To: aimhigh
Tongues served its purpose and is no longer a legimate gift. There are no scriptures to back that up. Poor conjecture based on misinterpretations of scritpure.

Really?

When the purpose of the gift was for unbelieving Jews (1Cor.14:21) who were suppose to receive signs (1Cor.1:22).

Now, in the initial stage of Christianity, the Gospel was to go first to the Jew and then to the Gentile.

It was only after the rejection by the Jew that the Gospel was to go to both equally.

Tongues was for the evangelism of the Jew and ceased when Israel ceased to be a nation in 70 AD.

Romans 11:29 "For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable."

Really?

So we still have Apostles?

We still have the gift of healing?

We still have people predicting the future?

So some gifts were transitional.

In fact, in Romans you do not see the gift of tongues even mentioned (it being a later book).

We know that Paul eventually lost the gift of healing because he could not heal his own friend (2Tim.4:20).

Romans 11 is speaking to the fact that God has made an unconditional Covenant with Israel, and that Covenant will be completed (Rom.11:25-26)

Tongues won't pass away until knowledge passes away, and that won't occur until Christ returns.

No Tongues, Prophecy and knowledge were temporary gifts, as Paul states in the next verse, they were for children, when I spake as a child (tongues), I understood as a child (prophecy), I thought as a child (knowledge) were all gifts that in function to stabilize the local church until the Canon of Scripture (NT) was complete.

Paul put away childish things and thought as a man, not as a child, that was his admonition against the Corinthians, to grow up, and go from milk to meat (1Cor.3:1-2)

1 Cor 1:7 "Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed."

And the Corinthians were rebuked in 1st Corinthians for their licentious and immature behavior.

Paul makes it very clear in 1Cor. that the issue is not the gift but the fruit one bears (1Cor.13).

80 posted on 03/13/2006 1:28:54 PM PST by fortheDeclaration (Gal. 4:16)
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