Johnus Paulus magnets.
Posted on 06/25/2006 5:48:00 AM PDT by NYer
Hey, there's not need to condescend, sir. We can cite curial documents all that we want to support conclusions, since the Vatican's treatment of the SSPX has been ANYTHING but consistant. And why did you feel the need to involve sitetest and BlackElk in our one-on-one discussion?
Hey, there's not need to condescend, sir. We can cite curial documents all that we want to support conclusions, since the Vatican's treatment of the SSPX has been ANYTHING but consistant. And why did you feel the need to involve sitetest and BlackElk in our one-on-one discussion?
My point is I find it regrettable to read one group of otherwise good Catholics discuss negatively the SSPX.
*I know I am going out on a limb but I sense you might be referring to me.
I think the SSPX and its supporters are Neo-Pharisees. They are to the Pope what the Pharisees were to Jesus.
I think the sspx a group of psychopathological protestants in Fiddlebacks. Their psychopathology is manifested in many and varied ways but in thinking about them as psychopaths, I am at least holding out the posibility of salvation (they are quite strict in their EENS theology) because their shared delusions would, hopefully, render them not culpable for their indefensible actions. They have Bishops operating in the Jurisdiction of Bishops in Communion with the Pope. They ordain priests without dimissorial letters/ without authority. They refuse to obey the Pope and will not acknowledge his universal jurisdiction. Their confessions and mariages are invalid. They teach the Mass is evil. They teach Jews as a race are condemned. They teach an Ecumenical Council is heretical. They have created their own tribunals to annul marriages.
I could go on, but, why bother? Apparently, to you, this is all defenisble, even praise worthy. Ok.
Now, I will roll-out some authoritative Dogma and Doctrine which proves these Neo-Pharisees don't have a leg to stand on. They are totally opposed to Tradition - unless one is referencing the tradition of schism.
Errors of Luther condemned by Pope Leo X in 1520
If the pope with a great part of the Church thought so and so, he would not err; still it is not a sin or heresy to think the contrary, especially in a matter not necessary for salvation, until one alternative is condemned and another approved by a general Council. A way has been made for us for weakening the authority of councils, and for freely contradicting their actions, and judging their decrees, and boldly confessing whatever seems true, whether it has been approved or disapproved by any council whatsoever
Council of Constance
In the name of the holy and undivided Trinity, Father and Son and holy Spirit. Amen. This holy synod of Constance, which is a general council, for the eradication of the present schism and for bringing unity and reform to God's church in head and members, legitimately assembled in the holy Spirit to the praise of almighty God, ordains, defines, decrees, discerns and declares as follows, in order that this union and reform of God's church may be obtained the more easily, securely, fruitfully and freely.
First it declares that, legitimately assembled in the holy Spirit, constituting a general council and representing the catholic church militant, it has power immediately from Christ; and that everyone of whatever state or dignity, even papal, is bound to obey it in those matters which pertain to the faith, the eradication of the said schism and the general reform of the said church of God in head and members.
Next, it declares that anyone of whatever condition, state or dignity, even papal, who contumaciously refuses to obey the past or future mandates, statutes, ordinances or precepts of this sacred council or of any other legitimately assembled general council, regarding the aforesaid things or matters pertaining to them, shall be subjected to well-deserved penance, unless he repents, and shall be duly punished, even by having recourse, if necessary, to other supports of the law. ......
If a pope is foreknown as damned and is evil, and is therefore a limb of the devil, he does not have authority over the faithful given to him by anyone, except perhaps by the emperor was a proposition of Wyclif which was condemned at the Council of Constance
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Consistory Allocution of 2 June 1944, "The mandate Confided to Peter", Pope Pius XII stated:
Mother Church, Catholic, Roman, which has remained faithful to the constitution received from her divine Founder, which still stands firm today on the solidity of the rock on which His will erected her, possesses in the primacy of Peter and of his legitimate successors, the assurance, guaranteed by the divine promises, of keeping and transmitting inviolate and in all its integrity through the centuries and millennia to the very end of time the entire sum of truth and grace contained in the redemptive mission of Christ.
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Pope Pius IX: Quanta Cura
1) "We cannot pass over in silence the audacity of those who, not enduring sound doctrine, contend that 'without sin and without any sacrifice of the Catholic profession assent and obedience may be refused to those judgments and decrees of the Apostolic See, whose object is declared to concern the Church's general good and her rights and discipline, so only it does not touch the dogmata of faith and morals.' But no one can be found not clearly and distinctly to see and understand how grievously this is opposed to the Catholic dogma of the full power given from God by Christ our Lord Himself to the Roman Pontiff of feeding, ruling and guiding the Universal Church."
Pope Paul VI: Excerpts from an Allocution to a Consistory on Loyalty to the Church and to the Council, 24, May 1976: AAS 68 (1976) 369-378; Not 12 (1976) 217-223
We must attach to this refusal to respect the liturgical norms laid down a special grievousness in that it introduces division where Christ's love has gathered us together in unity, namely, into the liturgy and the eucharistic sacrifice. For our part, in the name of tradition, we beseech all of our children to celebrate the rites of the restored liturgy with dignity and fervent devotion. Use of the old Ordo Missae is in no way left to the choice of priests or people. The Instruction of 14 June 1971 provided the celebration of Mass according to the former rite would be permitted, by faculty from the Ordinary, only for aged or sick priests offering the sacrifice without a congregation. The new Ordo Missae was promulgated in place of the old after careful deliberation and to carry out the directives of Vatican Council II. For a like reason, our predecessor St. Pius V, after the Council of Trent, commanded the use of the Roman Missal revised by his authority.
In virtue of the supreme authority granted to us by Jesus Christ we command the same ready obedience to the other laws, relating to liturgy, discipline, pastoral activity, made in these last years to put into effect the decrees of the Council. Any course of action seeking to stand in the way of the conciliar decrees can under no consideration be regarded as a work done for the advantage of the Church, since it in fact does the Church serious harm. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Trent ....Canon 7. If anyone says that the ceremonies, vestments, and outward signs which the Catholic Church uses in the celebration of masses, are incentives to impiety rather than stimulants to piety,let him be anathema
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POPE LEO XIII.... SAPIENTIAE CHRISTIANAE
In defining the limits of the obedience owed to the pastors of souls, but most of all to the authority of the Roman Pontiff, it must not be supposed that it is only to be yielded in relation to dogmas of which the obstinate denial cannot be disjoined from the crime of heresy.
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Martin Luther, "These church laws hold good only so long as they are not injurious to Christianity and the laws of God. Therefore, if the Pope deserves punishment, these laws cease to bind us, since Christendom would suffer."
Marcel Lefebvre, "In the Church there is no law or jurisdiction which can impose on a Christian a diminution of his faith. All the faithful can and should resist whatever interferes with their faith.... If they are forced with an order putting their faith in danger of corruption, there is an overriding duty to disobey."
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Council of Trent....DECREE ON THE SACRAMENTS
CANON XIII.-If any one saith, that the received and approved rites of the Catholic Church, wont to be used in the solemn administration of the sacraments, may be contemned, or without sin be omitted at pleasure by the ministers, or be changed, by every pastor of the churches, into other new ones; let him be anathema.
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*Ok, I'm done, for now. I could roll-out SCORES of such quotes - as those I have pinged can attest - but the simple truth is those who are delusional are not capable of being corrected by facts.
The sad reality is the sspx are psychopathological protestants in Fiddlebacks. Inviting them back en masse into the Body of the Church is guaranteed to cause additional turmoil, enmity and strife. The Christian Church has turned around and has greatly benefited from the exchange of soi disant trads for the converts from Bible-believing, Bible-knowledgeable, Christ-loving Christians.
Outside of Free Republic nine Christians know about the deracinated, decaying, dying, hysterical, heterical, cult of lefevbre and eight of those don't care one way or the other. The cult of lefevbre has experienced their own schims within their schism and they have their own Daughters of Trent to deal with.
In America, where many Christians have been denatured of virile Christianity, due to the malign influence of feminislm and liberalism and secularism, it has become, for some, a blasphemous temptation too difficult to resist, and so they praise a schism. That, in practice, is THE farthest thing from Tradition. Here is how a REAL Trad speaks about schism
The Epistle of Ignatius to the Philadelphians Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the Church of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, which is at Philadelphia, in Asia, which has obtained mercy, and is established in the harmony of God, and rejoiceth unceasingly in the passion of our Lord, and is filled with all mercy through his resurrection; which I salute in the blood of Jesus Christ, who is our eternal and enduring joy, especially if [men] are in unity with the bishop, the presbyters, and the deacons, who have been appointed according to the mind of Jesus Christ, whom He has established in security, after His own will, and by His Holy Spirit.
CHAPTER I.--PRAISE OF THE BISHOP.
Which bishop, I know, obtained the ministry which pertains to the common [weal], not of himself, neither by men, nor through vainglory, but by the love of God the Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ; at whose meekness I am struck with admiration, and who by his silence is able to accomplish more than those who vainly talk. For he is in harmony with the commandments [of God], even as the harp is with its strings. Wherefore my soul declares his mind towards God a happy one, knowing it to be virtuous and perfect, and that his stability as well as freedom from all anger is after the example of the infinite meekness of the living God.
CHAPTER II.--MAINTAIN UNION WITH THE BISHOP.
Wherefore, as children of light and truth, flee from division and wicked doctrines; but where the shepherd is, there do ye as sheep follow. For there are many wolves that appear worthy of credit, who, by means of a pernicious pleasure, carry captives those that are running towards God; but in your unity they shall have no place.
CHAPTER III.--AVOID SCHISMATICS.
Keep yourselves from those evil plants which Jesus Christ does not tend, because they are not the planting of the Father. Not that I have found any division among you, but exceeding purity. For as many as are of God and of Jesus Christ are also with the bishop. And as many as shall, in the exercise of repentance, return into the unity of the Church, these, too, shall belong to God, that they may live according to Jesus Christ. Do not err, my brethren. If any man follows him that makes a schism in the Church, he shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
*Because they are my hereoes and I did not want to deprive them of an opportunity to share their intelligence, insight and wit.
That's nice. But, a Cardinal's personal opinion, expressed during a television interview, does not supplant an authoritative decision taken by Johannes Paulus Magnus.
LOL True. The only constant in the sspx is heresy, antisemitism, lunacy, self-righteousness, perfidy, and haughtiness
Leaps and bounds, brother. The sspx is always "growing by leaps and bounds"
Fellay.... If you want to understand more completely what will happen in Rome, I don’t know, but you must be patient (laughter) and work on perseverance. When we look at this, I don’t see much in the coming future, and when I say “future” I mean it may be years – we say little by little Tradition is making progress against Modernism – how long will it take to bring the head back to this Tradition? God knows. It will be a long process.
Don’t throw yourself into illusions. We have the idea that in Rome – they don’t want to understand the cause of this sickness which is shaping the church. We recognize that we have made some progress – that there is a recognition of the sickness. But they don’t want to blame the Council and the spirit of the Council and the getting closer to the world – the worldly spirit which has entered into the Church and is killing everything. They want to stick with it because it is so much easier – but it is not the spirit of Christ – and as long as the Cross has not come back into their hearts, we cannot expect much.
*My comment was not "snide." It was wry and derisive.
Fellay is a barking moonbat heretic and the fact he used the occasion of this illicit ordination to claim God is on the side of his schism (he and lefevbre were, perhaps, textbook examples of folie a deux)is just what one expects of such perfidous priests. As soon as they were ordained they were supsended a divinis.
Fellay used the occasion to publicly engage in politics against Rome. He used the occasion to attack an Ecumenical Council. Any sensible Christian knows an attack against the Holy See and an Ecuemnical Council, ESPECIALLLY during an ordination, is just cause to declare the nitwit speaking those words a schismatic,heretical, barking moonbat who ought be laughed-off the face of the Earth - after he has been horse-whipped
Sister, the tragic thing is you seem to think his speech an example of the charity of the Sacred Heart. It is Charity to attack the Holy See and an Ecumenical Council?
MurphE posted Fellay's speech.
I posted a wry and derisive comment about how excommunicated priests sure can preach
you then indicated you thought I was dreaming.
I then noted his excommunication was mentioned in all the papers.
And now you try and introduce into the subject of all the previous exchanges -the status of the excommunictaed priest fellay's (and his speech) - all manner of irrelevant and extraneous matter in an apparent attempt to convince others those are ideas of mine.
Only you know why you do such things.
"The Catholic Faith is all about deportment."
We are not talking deportment, we are talking sacriledge.
If you think the Mass is all about clowns and dancing girls,
you are part of the modernist establishment.
I choose to particpate in a valid, reverent Mass whenever I am able.
Taken from your own posting:
"The Masses they celebrate are also valid, but it is considered morally illicit for the faithful to participate in these Masses unless they are physically or morally impeded from participating in a Mass celebrated by a Catholic priest in good standing (cf. Code of Canon Law, canon 844.2 )"
It seems to me that sacriledge is a moral impediment to "participating in a Mass celebrated by a Catholic priest in good standing. "
Considering the state of the liturgy in many dioceses, thank God for the SSPX and the Eastern Orthodox.
Irrelevant and provocative as well as admittedly "wry and derisive." Rather than offering reactions or being positive in terms of Bishop Fellay's fine sermon which, BTW, deserves respect and comment, you choose to be "derisive."
Yeah, I get it. Make it personal and contentious rather than charitable and responsive. God bless Bishop Fellay and all the SSPX priests who have devoted their lives to Him.
We'll soon see as to steps taken in this pontificate as to the alleged excoms and you can then eat your words on that issue. Until then, in His charity, hope, and Faith...
Pretty clear, eh?
""By virtue of my Apostolic Authority I Decree ... respect must everywhere be shown for the feelings of those who are attached to the Latin liturgical tradition, by a wide and generous application of the directives already issued some time ago by the Apostolic See, for the use of the Roman Missal ... of 1962."(Ecclesia Dei)
Pretty clear, eh?
The first option is Sedevacantism. One can only for so long maintain the double-mindedness in, supposedly, acknowledging the Pope's Universal Jurisdiction while constantly repudiating it in practice
The second option is accepting the sspx Pope. Williamson has written about this previously. That is the end this schism is headed towards. They will have their own conclave and elect a Pope. He will be acclaiamed a Traditional Pope who represents eternal Rome...blah, blah, blah.
The third option is not within the reslm of possibility. Fellay is not about to admit all he has done and said for the past 20 years has been indefensible. He is clearly insane and he does not have the humility to either admit his heresies or beg forgiveness for them and retreat from the stage.
Good Luck with all of that.
Spread all the calumny you wish about whomever you wish to, for you alone will have to answer for your words, but do not ping me to it, I have no interest in any of it.
The fact is everything I said about fellay was accurate. He used the occasion of an illicit ordination to attack the Holy See and an Ecumenical Council. Y'all think that is an example of charity reflecting the Charity of the Sacred Heart.
Fellay and the sspx is to Catholicism what Patty Hearst and The Symbionese Liberation Army was to democracy
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