Posted on 09/26/2006 4:48:31 PM PDT by NYer
Rather then fighting against history,you really should read what the Early Church Father,s had to say about the Eucharist.
What,s amazing is that EVERY SINGLE Early Church Father believed Holy Eucharist to be truly the body and blood of Christ.(There was not even one single exception)That,s because the Apostles knew it to be TRUE!
Here are some writings of the Early Church Father,s -some of them were DIRECT Disciples of the Apostles
"They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again." Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to Smyrnaeans, 7,1 (c. A.D. 110).
"For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh." Justin Martyr, First Apology, 66 (c. A.D. 110-165).
"[T]he bread over which thanks have been given is the body of their Lord, and the cup His blood..." Irenaeus, Against Heresies, IV:18,4 (c. A.D. 200).
"He acknowledged the cup (which is a part of the creation) as his own blood, from which he bedews our blood; and the bread (also a part of creation) he affirmed to be his own body, from which he gives increase to our bodies." Irenaeus, Against Heresies, V:2,2 (c. A.D. 200).
"But what consistency is there in those who hold that the bread over which thanks have been given is the Body of their Lord, and the cup His Blood, if they do not acknowledge that He is the Son of the Creator of the world..." Irenaeus, Against Heresies, IV:18, 2 (c. A.D. 200).
"For the blood of the grape--that is, the Word--desired to be mixed with water, as His blood is mingled with salvation. And the blood of the Lord is twofold. For there is the blood of His flesh, by which we are redeemed from corruption; and the spiritual, that by which we are anointed. And to drink the blood of Jesus, is to become partaker of the Lord's immortality; the Spirit being the energetic principle of the Word, as blood is of flesh. Accordingly, as wine is blended with water, so is the Spirit with man. And the one, the mixture of wine and water, nourishes to faith; while the other, the Spirit, conducts to immortality. And the mixture of both--of the water and of the Word--is called Eucharist, renowned and glorious grace; and they who by faith partake of it are sanctified both in body and soul." Clement of Alexandria, The Instructor, 2 (ante A.D. 202).
And my "resurrection thing" comment was an attempt to show you the offensive nature of flippantly denying someone's faith. I was not denying the resurrection itself.
Worship your own way but the Catholic bashing has got to stop.
Thank you friend! Spot on to what I intended!
Or they had no faith. They demanded, like some even today, "show us and only then will we believe." God does not work that way. Instead, we believe because He says so which is Faith. Lord, we believe. Help us, Lord, to understand!
Is Jesus God? If so, He has anything He wants! If not, your faith is in vain.
Great post. Some new ideas to cogitate over....
All fishermen, tax collectors and zealots know a ton about metaphors. They took that in their third year of college. They also discourse on onomatopoeia quite often!
Excuse but aren't you obfuscating his argument with facts! (/sarcasm)
I hope you have read Scott Hahn's beautiful book on the Mass. " The Lamb's Sacrifice". He rightly points out that the Mass can be found in the Book of Revelations.
To quote that great Catholic author, Flannery O' Connor, speaking of the Eucharist :
" If it's only a symbol the hell with it"
She knew that the Eucharist is the body and blood, soul and divinity of our Lord.
I am working on his book "Lord Have Mercy" right now. I will be trying to get through a bunch of his books in the coming months.
Thanks for the heads up.
Christ's perfect sacrifice on the Cross is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world- past, present and future. At the Eucharist, Divine Liturgy, Mass, Lord's Supper, whatever term we use, the Words of Institution include "Do this in remembrance of Me" or "Do this to Me make present again". The point being that we are not re-sacrificing Christ (there is no need to do that), but that we are mystically bringing ourselves back to Christ's one oblation. It's a spiritual re-play. The only new sacrifice that is made at the Eucharist is that of the participants offering themselves unto Christ.
In regards to the elements- Jesus did say that me must consume his flesh and blood. The Doctrine of the Real Presence says that Christ is really present in the bread and wine. The substance (by "substance" I mean unerlying nature, not physical attributes- similar to the "substance of an arguement") of the elements is changed to that of Christ's flesh and blood. Yes, it's really bread and wine and it's really flesh and blood- just as Christ is really human and really divine.
It's way too early for me to be thinking about this....
Claud - Thanks for setting us straight regarding the Greek.
Bump Bump Bump Bump Bump Bump!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The tapes or cd,s of Scott Hahns" Lamb,s Supper" are worth buying because of the incredible passion in how Scott tells his story.
I,m partially thru the 8 tape series by Scott Hahn and Jeff Cravins titled: Our Father,s Plan- a catholic Bible Study on Salvation History.
Its filled with Typology starting with history of the early World and finishing with The Church and the book of Revelation.
And allow me to point out that as the book was being completed, he discovered that the Early Church Fathers had known this "key"--that the book of Revelation described a liturigical celebration--from the earliest days of the Church. It turned Dr. Hahn on to the study of these magnificent scholars who carried the Faith within their writings from shortly after the death of the Apostles!
F
You wrote: "Excuse but aren't you obfuscating his argument with facts! (/sarcasm)"
That's my usual MO !!!! Always seems to get the same result too.
Exactly!
As Scott Hahn said correctly that when he was a Protestsant-he wasted too much time with one eye constantly on the news along with spending too much time on the Book of Revelation trying to predict the end times.
This is why we need to read and interpret the Bible like the Saints and the Church interpreted the Bible thru the ages.If we don,t do this we are going to get it wrong.
Last time a checked there was over 36,000 different protestant denominations with many different interpretations of Scripture.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.