Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

To: Claud
He was most certainly talking about exactly that. The Greek *screams* literal interpretation: First of all, the word used for eat here in verse 54 & 56 & 58 is trogo--this is not just plain old 'eat" (which is phago)--this is gnaw, munch, crunch, chew. Christ in verse literally says "Whoever chews my flesh and drinks my blood"...then later in verse 58 whoever chews on this bread will live forever

You got your bible from Jerome...Why didn't Jerome use 'knaw' or 'crunch' instead of good ole 'eat'???

The Greek used in the 'Majority Text' means eat...

φάγω

phagō

fag'-o

A primary verb (used as an alternate of G2068 in certain tenses); to eat (literally or figuratively): - eat, meat.

Secondly, let's look at verse 55: for my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink....real food, real drink. And quite frankly, the English here is not even as strong as the Greek, which says "alethes brosis, alethes posis"--true food, true drink--and true in substance, not true in similarity or analog

From your Catholic bible...

Joh 6:55 (6:56) For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed.

Neither your Catholic bible nor my bible, nor the Majority Greek Texts use the term 'real' or 'true' food or drink... Surely if this is the 'original' greek, Jerome would have put it in your bible...

The text says straight out why they were grumbling...it is right there in plain Scripture..."How can this man give us his flesh to eat"? So why were they saying "this is a hard saying, who can listen to it"? Some inoffensive discourse about the bread from heaven? That makes zero sense, I'm sorry.

Ya they were grumbling...But that was just the icing on the cake...Jesus says he already knew they didn't believe him before He mentioned the eating of flesh...And you'll notice they didn't pick up and leave til Jesus told them;

Joh 6:62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Joh 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

Joh 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

And then;

Joh 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

I don't believe Paul looked at it the way you do...Or any of the apostles for that matter...They knew it was a metaphor just like I do because of verses 35, 62, 63, 69, 47, etc...

52 posted on 09/27/2006 11:20:41 AM PDT by Iscool
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 49 | View Replies ]


To: Iscool
You got your bible from Jerome...Why didn't Jerome use 'knaw' or 'crunch' instead of good ole 'eat'???

Uhh... he did. The original Vulgate has: "dixit ergo eis Iesus amen amen dico vobis nisi MANDUCAVERITIS carnem Filii hominis et biberitis eius sanguinem non habetis vitam in vobis". Manducare in Latin is more like "chew" rather than "edere" which is just plain old "eat".

Neither your Catholic bible nor my bible, nor the Majority Greek Texts use the term 'real' or 'true' food or drink... Surely if this is the 'original' greek, Jerome would have put it in your bible...

Umm..I dunno what you are talking about "Majority" Greek. The Greek New Testament is the Greek New Testament....I am not aware of a manuscript tradition that differs in the word here. The word phago does appear in John 6, but the word trogo *also* appears. It's as if Christ was making a point...switching from "eat" to "gnaw" to make the point.

Neither your Catholic bible nor my bible, nor the Majority Greek Texts use the term 'real' or 'true' food or drink... Surely if this is the 'original' greek, Jerome would have put it in your bible...

Balderdash! It's right there in the Greek...."sarx mou ALETHES estin brosis, kai to aima mou ALETHES estin posis". Alethes means what? True, real. And in fact Jerome did put it in the Vulgate, so I have no idea which Vulgate you are reading: "caro enim mea VERE est cibus et sanguis meus VERE est potus".

I don't believe Paul looked at it the way you do...Or any of the apostles for that matter...They knew it was a metaphor just like I do because of verses 35, 62, 63, 69, 47, etc...

Oh, I'm well aware you don't believe it. But he did indeed look at it that way. Look up 1 Corinthians 11:26:

"26 For as often as you shall eat this bread, and drink the chalice, you shall shew the death of the Lord, until he come. 27 Therefore whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord. 28 But let a man prove himself: and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of the chalice. 29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord.30 Therefore are there many infirm and weak among you, and many sleep.
Not discerning the body of the Lord.
56 posted on 09/27/2006 1:37:54 PM PDT by Claud
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 52 | View Replies ]

To: Iscool

Rather then fighting against history,you really should read what the Early Church Father,s had to say about the Eucharist.
What,s amazing is that EVERY SINGLE Early Church Father believed Holy Eucharist to be truly the body and blood of Christ.(There was not even one single exception)That,s because the Apostles knew it to be TRUE!

Here are some writings of the Early Church Father,s -some of them were DIRECT Disciples of the Apostles

"They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again." Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to Smyrnaeans, 7,1 (c. A.D. 110).

"For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh." Justin Martyr, First Apology, 66 (c. A.D. 110-165).

"[T]he bread over which thanks have been given is the body of their Lord, and the cup His blood..." Irenaeus, Against Heresies, IV:18,4 (c. A.D. 200).

"He acknowledged the cup (which is a part of the creation) as his own blood, from which he bedews our blood; and the bread (also a part of creation) he affirmed to be his own body, from which he gives increase to our bodies." Irenaeus, Against Heresies, V:2,2 (c. A.D. 200).

"But what consistency is there in those who hold that the bread over which thanks have been given is the Body of their Lord, and the cup His Blood, if they do not acknowledge that He is the Son of the Creator of the world..." Irenaeus, Against Heresies, IV:18, 2 (c. A.D. 200).

"For the blood of the grape--that is, the Word--desired to be mixed with water, as His blood is mingled with salvation. And the blood of the Lord is twofold. For there is the blood of His flesh, by which we are redeemed from corruption; and the spiritual, that by which we are anointed. And to drink the blood of Jesus, is to become partaker of the Lord's immortality; the Spirit being the energetic principle of the Word, as blood is of flesh. Accordingly, as wine is blended with water, so is the Spirit with man. And the one, the mixture of wine and water, nourishes to faith; while the other, the Spirit, conducts to immortality. And the mixture of both--of the water and of the Word--is called Eucharist, renowned and glorious grace; and they who by faith partake of it are sanctified both in body and soul." Clement of Alexandria, The Instructor, 2 (ante A.D. 202).


61 posted on 09/27/2006 4:24:28 PM PDT by stfassisi ("Above all gifts that Christ gives his beloved is that of overcoming self"St Francis Assisi)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 52 | View Replies ]

To: Iscool
Or any of the apostles for that matter...They knew it was a metaphor

All fishermen, tax collectors and zealots know a ton about metaphors. They took that in their third year of college. They also discourse on onomatopoeia quite often!

67 posted on 09/27/2006 6:46:50 PM PDT by Frank Sheed (Tá brón orainn. Níl Spáinnis againn anseo.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 52 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson