Posted on 10/16/2006 8:27:21 AM PDT by NYer
Pope Benedict XVI celebrates the canonization ceremony of Italian nun Rosa Venerini, Mexican bishop Rafael Guizar, Italian priest Filippo Smaldone and Indiana nun Theodore Guerin in St. Peter's square at the Vatican, October 15, 2006. REUTERS/Giampiero Sposito
By Tom Heneghan, Religion Editor
PARIS (Reuters) - After almost two decades of schism, Catholic traditionalists hope the Vatican will soon take them back into the fold by granting two key concessions and leaving unresolved the main issue that drove them away.
Bishop Bernard Fellay, head of the Society of Saint Pius X (SSPX), says the expected revival of the old Latin mass that was replaced in the 1960s by modern liturgy in local languages would be a "grand gesture" meeting one of his demands.
The Swiss bishop, successor to the late SSPX founder French Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, also expects the Vatican to lift the 1988 excommunications of Lefebvre and four bishops -- including Fellay -- whom he consecrated without Rome's approval.
"Things are going in the right direction. I think we'll get an agreement," Fellay told journalists in Paris at the weekend. "Things could speed up and come faster than expected."
Getting an agreement now would mean the Swiss-based SSPX and its 470 priests could return to the Roman fold without resolving a dispute over its opposition to the modernising reforms of the Second Vatican Council (1962-1965).
Claiming a million followers, the SSPX is the vanguard of traditionalists among 1.1 billion Catholics worldwide. Its return would have no direct effect on most parishes but high symbolic value for arch-conservatives in the Church.
The excommunications by the late Pope John Paul created the first schism in the Church in modern times. Since his election last year, Pope Benedict has been trying to hold out an olive branch to the SSPX.
Fellay envisages the SSPX would be an independent group within the Church, free of control by local bishops, while it continued to advocate rolling back other Vatican II reforms.
"We would be a bit like the Chinese Patriotic Church, in the Church without really being there," he explained. "There could be a relationship between Rome and us, but it would not yet be a juridical relationship."
"INTERMEDIATE STATE"
Speculation about an SSPX return arose last week when Vatican sources said Pope Benedict would soon allow wider use of the old Tridentine Mass in Latin that went out of favour when the Church switched to praying in local languages in the 1960s.
Priests can say the old mass if they get permission but few bishops grant it and demand for Latin rites is minimal. Most Catholics under 50 years old have never heard Latin spoken.
The SSPX thinks the post-Council liturgy, which stresses participation by worshippers in open praying and singing, has lost the sacred character and beauty of the traditional mass.
The Tridentine rite it prefers is solemn, with the priest and altar boys quietly reciting the prayers in Latin with their backs to the silent congregation.
The traditionalists also reject the Council decision that the Church, which long saw itself as the only path to salvation, should respect and work together with other faiths.
Echoing this, a senior SSPX official sparked controversy last year by urging the Pope to tell Jews and followers of other religions to convert from their "false systems" to Catholicism.
Fellay said the SSPX sought an "intermediate state" in the Church so it could continue to oppose what Lefebvre called "neo-Modernist and neo-Protestant tendencies ... in the Second Vatican Council and in all the reforms which issued from it."
"We don't want a practical solution before these doctrinal questions are resolved," he said. "The focus should be on these discussions."
Benedict, who sparked protest across the Muslim world last month with a speech hinting that Islam had been spread by the sword, has frequently stressed his support for Vatican II reforms including cooperation with other faiths.
I'll look for the quote and post it if I can find it. I can't recall the circumstances of the quotation.
thanks...
They are so dumb they followed into schism the very same man whose entire schism was based, almost solely, upon hatred of the mass Lefevbre himself publicly offered at the tomb of Pope St. Pius Xth (AFTER he had REPEATEDLY, PUBLICLY denounced it) in the Vatican and rejection of the Second Vatican Council, a Council he attended and voted YES on every single Document.
They are a cult. The irrational, self-serving, word-breaking, and self-contradictiory actions of the excommunicated individual they worship are papered over my innumerable pages torn from the ahistorical works of Mike Davies, a prot convert. That's their Traditon :)
Not only does Vatican Two not apply to them, Trent doesn't either. And so what if DURING THE SECOND VATICAN COUNCIL Lefevbre himself debated in favor of the NO JURISDICTION, NO MINISTRY Traditional Axiom?
What Lefevbre himself did at Vatican Two no longer counted once he repudiated his public actions as a Bishop after the Ecumenical Council ended
Now that's a man one can trust and build a cult around.
Devils in Blue Jeans? Nah. Prots in Fiddlebacks
A little reminiscent of the constant "democrats poised to take over the government" stories we've been reading for the last six months.
Fellay is the source for the "report" (agitprop)and then, later on, we read a mouthiece of the schism denying the effect of Fellay's weasel words and noting the lifting of the excommunications doesn't exclude the sanctions of the excommunications, blah, blah, blah...
The SSPX news agency, DICI, denies some aspects of the article and affirms that it "presents a deeply false view of the state of affairs between Rome and the Fraternity of Saint Pius X". DICI adds the audio link to some remarks Bishop Fellay made last Saturday at Villepreux, near Paris, in which one may realize "in what precise terms Bishop Fellay speaks of a 'withdrawal of the decree of excommunication', which he differentiates well from a removal of the sanctions'."
*No way. Fellay presented a deeply false view..." why, imagine my shock. He is usually so reliable :)
Reading all these breathless rumors is not unlike trying to keep-up with all the rumors of the various couplings of the Hollywood stars and strumpets. Who bothers and what does it matter?
ALL of this is agit-prop meant to keep the hive happily buzzing and to keep Fellay's face in the news as "the" defender of the Faith.
And like some sad widowed housewives who have no life and who focus their attention on Ben and Jen in Hollywod, many in the schism are just a bunch of old bitter protestant women, angry they locked themselves out of the home they were born into. They actually think the Pope will declare their Schismatic Cave a Basilica.
SSPX's DICI stands for Deracinated, Insane, Chimeral, Impotent
The CCC is not the Church. The GIRM is not the Church. Neither have any promises of being infallible. Both can be riddled with error and it would not mean that "the gates of hell have prevailed."
The Catechism of the Catholic Church ( I think the schism rejects it, right?) teaches this is the "Mass of all Ages"
The Mass of all ages
1345 As early as the second century we have the witness of St. Justin Martyr for the basic lines of the order of the Eucharistic celebration. They have stayed the same until our own day for all the great liturgical families. St. Justin wrote to the pagan emperor Antoninus Pius (138-161) around the year 155, explaining what Christians did: ...
On the day we call the day of the sun, all who dwell in the city or country gather in the same place.
The memoirs of the apostles and the writings of the prophets are read, as much as time permits.
When the reader has finished, he who presides over those gathered admonishes and challenges them to imitate these beautiful things.
Then we all rise together and offer prayers* for ourselves . . .and for all others, wherever they may be, so that we may be found righteous by our life and actions, and faithful to the commandments, so as to obtain eternal salvation.
When the prayers are concluded we exchange the kiss.
Then someone brings bread and a cup of water and wine mixed together to him who presides over the brethren. He takes them and offers praise and glory to the Father of the universe, through the name of the Son and of the Holy Spirit and for a considerable time he gives thanks (in Greek: eucharistian) that we have been judged worthy of these gifts.
When he has concluded the prayers and thanksgivings, all present give voice to an acclamation by saying: 'Amen.' When he who presides has given thanks and the people have responded, those whom we call deacons give to those present the "eucharisted" bread, wine and water and take them to those who are absent.
*Now, I know that is not what the english-protestant-turned-Catholic-high- school-teacher "teaches: is "the mass of all ages" but, those of us in the Body Of Christ listen to and learn from the Living Magisterium, which, not Davies, is the Pillar and Ground of Truth :)
which I'm sure you and BC will be overjoyed to hear about given your obedience to all things from Rome
* The Eucharist. Real Meat. That, and Obedience, the other real meat, is the diet of real Christian men. So, you can count on me and BE. We obey even when it does not meet our personal preferences, proclivities and prejudices. We are on a diet
When the Pope (1) intends to teach (2) by virtue of his
supreme authority (3) on a matter of faith and morals (4) to the whole Church, he is protected by the Holy Spirit from error. His teaching act is therefore called "infallible" and the teaching
which he articulates is termed "irreformable" which means it can never be changed because it is certainly true.
Since the successors of Peter have the same authority, which comes ultimately from Christ, to bind and loose, they have the authority to bind the faithful in matters pertaining to salvation that is, in faith or morals. If a Pope could bind the faithful to error, it would be a clear triumph of the powers of Hell, because the entire Church would be bound to follow the error under Christ's own authority.
The CCC is protected by the Holy Spirit, otherwise the faithful are bound to error. God doesn't make it hard to follow Him. He doesn't hide the true teachings amoung the false. He doesn't allow His Church to teach and practice heresy.
Nor has the SSPX.
*Not true. Lefevbre was warned that if he consecrated fellay and the fellas Bishops he WOULD be excommunicated. He went right ahead so that his will would be done. That is called "willing" in the real world.
"He never announced that Holy Mother Church taught heresies."
Neither has the SSPX.
*Untrue, Fellay teaches the Jews are cursed and his mouthpiece, the Angelus, charges the Church has changed the teaching re the Jews.
*Fellay teaches the normative Mass is evil. Trent says such statements are anathema.
*Fellay sends his vagus priests into the Jurisdictions of legitimate Bishops in opposition to Trent.
*Fellay teaches the Second Vatican Council taught heresy.
*I think two possibilities exist. One, you are ignorant. Two, you intentionally mislead others. Thinking you are ignorant is the most Christian option.
Fellay teaches the Mass is evil - that is a heresy because the Living Magisterium CANNOT apporve an evil rite/liturgy.
Fellay teaches the Jews are cursed. The Christian Church teaches they are NOT cursed. There are MANY other heresies his souls is bound by. All together, they weigh down his soul like an anchor and that anchor is dragging him down into Hell
I pray he, and other memmbers of the lefevbre cult, repent while there is still time
Are you married?
*LOL I am reminded of some in the Indult Crowd in Miami who complained the priest was using hosts consecrated during the Pauline Rite. The priest was not amused. The priest, btw, is a revert who, as I recall, UnPoped while a priest
Unlike the donatism-dominated cult of lefevbre, we Christians know we are quite sinful :)
I think those in the schism are blind. Humor, outrageousnes, hyperbole, outlandishness etc are tools meant to pry the scales from their eyes.
I thoroughly enjoy BE's rhetoric as a Catholic Militant. He is a Christian man in the best sense of the word. He fights with the tools His Lord and Saviour Blessed him with. He is intelligent, witty, extremely well-educated, deeply and widely read, masculine, bold, outrageous funny and everything I would want in a neighbor.
He fights like a true Catholic Traditionalist.
Even after reading this you may be disgusted. C'est la Vie. My skin is thicker than Hilary's arse.
For my part, I think fighting over the Faith almost as much a masculine treasure and pleasure as rooting for Lord Al Davis and the Oakland Raiders and listening to Jerry Lee Lewis and reading The Gospel of St. John
You doubt the Pope has called "venerable" one who has died excommunicated? Gosh, you are such a Big Blue Meanie
*First of all, I object to your practice of putting BE before me. I know alphabetically he might be, but, I am getting jealous
There is a difference. Me and BE are not romancing the stonehearts. The Pope, like Jesus, is. He is after the lost sheep.
My intent is to mock, scorn, laugh at, ridicule, scandalise, condemn etc etc the schism. I want the schism to be seeen as hateful, insane, heretical and a clear and present danger to the fate of one's immortal soul.
DON'T TOUCH IT. IT IS POISON. IT WILL KILL YOUR SOUL AND DETROY YOUR MIND is what I yell at my brothers and sisters lurking here.
Due to feminism and relativism, the SATANIC idea has taken hold that there can be such a thing as a "good" schism and the sspx, it is thought, is a "good" schism. To real Christian men, that ought be akin to the idea there is such a thing as "good" adultery.
The fact of the matter is the actions of me and BE ARE Tradition. In Tradition, lay men have ALWAYS been masculine and forceful in fighting the enemies of the Church. Sadly, due to the successes of Feminism and the homosexualisation of our society, many men have been cowed (no offense, Oprah) into thinking Phil Donahue or Mike Farrell ought be our role models.
NOT ME!!!
NOT BE (If i may be so bold to speak for him)
Look, we all have been made differently. We all have our own way of being. I use what I have to do what I can to serve My Lord and Saviour and the Church He established. I am willing to stand before Him and account for what I have done vis a vis the schism.
It's you and your counterparts on the SSPX side that will be relics of the past.
*Those who fight and die on behalf of Holy Mother Chuch ought be relics - embedded in the Altar. Many already have been...
Those who fight and die on behalf of the schism will become the leaden crowns on the skulls of the heretical/schismatic Bishops whose heads pave the floor of Hell
There too? I just found it in the February 2006 issue of the Angelus. Pope BXVI made the following comment to Bishop Fellay during their 2005 meeting at Castel Gandolfo:
You - -Really by whom? It certainly isn't a heresy to hold that opinion, but when John Paul II's papacy is compared to the papacy of the other popes given that title it does appear to be an uniformed opinion to say the least.
* Pope Benedict, at lesst twice publicly, has referred to him as "John Paul the Great."
But, compared to your personal opinion, what is Pope Benedict informed about?
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