Peter & Succession (Understanding the Church Today)

Ignatius Insight ^ | 2005 | Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger

[OLD REGGIE]

One compelling biblical fact that points clearly to Simon Peter’s primacy among the 12 Apostles and his importance and centrality to the drama of Christ’s earthly ministry, is that he is mentioned by name (e.g. Simon, Peter, Cephas, Kephas, etc.) 195 times in the course of the New Testament. The next most often-mentioned Apostle is St. John, who is mentioned a mere 29 times. After John, in descending order, the frequency of the other Apostles being mentioned by name trails off rapidly.

"A" is always the first letter in the English alphabet. Is it the most important?

Paul is, by far, the most prolific writer in the New Testament. Does that make him the most important?

There is no doubt Peter is pre-eminent among the Apostles but he was not their undisputed leader. The Apostles acted collegiately and at times directed Peter on his mission. They could not have done that if he was the one supreme leader.

Acts 1:
23 And they put forward two, Joseph called Barsab'bas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthi'as.
24 And they prayed and said, "Lord, who knowest the hearts of all men, show which one of these two thou hast chosen
25 to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside, to go to his own place."
26 And they cast lots for them, and the lot fell on Matthi'as; and he was enrolled with the eleven apostles.

Now, of course, the Holy Spirit was working within the Apostles but it was they who cast lots and selected Matthias. The Pope chooses his Cardinals. The Apostles chose their replacement. They, not Peter. Peter was simply one of them, an equal one.



"... Often, Scripture shows Simon Peter as spokesman for the entire apostolic college, as if he were the voice of the Church (cf. Mat. 18:21; Mark 8:29; Luke 8:45; Luke 12:41; John 6:68-69)."

Often, but not always. That is a critical difference.

Acts 8:14
Now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Sama'ria had received the word of God, they sent to them Peter and John,

Peter was subordinate to the group.

Acts 15:19 Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God,

James made the binding judgment because it was in his territory. In this instance Peter was acting as one of the Apostles, was a member of the audience, and was definitely not in charge.

[trisham]

This is a public forum...This is not a 'caucus' thread...

And secondly, I don't care about any religion...

************

And thirdly, you add nothing to the discussion but whining and criticizing. If you're so happy with your point of view, why visit us to muck up the conversation?

[wmfights]

"Didn't Ignatius and Ireneas have Bibles? The Scriptures are quoted throughout the writings of the patriarchs from the 2nd century. They clearly had them."
________________________________

They had copies of the writings, but were they put in a fixed order and established as complete Scripture?

[Iscool]

And thirdly, you add nothing to the discussion but whining and criticizing. If you're so happy with your point of view, why visit us to muck up the conversation?

There may be some unsuspecting sinner hunting for some truth reading these threads...My concern is for that person't soul...I don't want him/her wandering off into Hell while equipped with only good intentions...

why visit us to muck up the conversation?

Sorry to rain on your parade...You wanna talk about how you fry pork chops or who will win the super bowl, you won't hear from me...But when you talk about religious matters in a public forum, I'll be there to help out...

[trisham]

There may be some unsuspecting sinner hunting for some truth reading these threads...

************

Welcome, sinner.

[Iscool]

Welcome, sinner.

You won't get any dispute from me on that one...But the part you missed is 'a sinner, saved by Grace'...

[trisham]

I think you're searching for something on these threads, and it's not another "sinner". I hope you find it.

[Uncle Chip]

"They had copies of the writings, but were they put in a fixed order and established as complete Scripture?"

Good question. I'm sure the fixed order is not that critical since they were probably smart enough to put the epistles together, the gospels together, the Hebrew scriptures together in some logical order. But as to whether all or any of the patriarchs had all the scriptures, I don't know. Perhaps a study of their extant writings would indicate what they had, but would also not rule out what they had but just did not quote from.

[bornacatholic]

Christian Catholic, the original Biblical Christianity...

and undefeated champion

[bornacatholic]

That wasn't about Doctrine. It was about Collegiality. The Pope ain't a tsar.

[bornacatholic]

After being personally converted by Jesus Saul/Paul was sent to the nascent Catholioc Church to have his blindness cured and to get a quick catechesis.

[bornacatholic]

Wrong. What do you think VULGATE means? The Latin Vulgate appeared long before the heresiarch Luther

[Uncle Chip]

"After being personally converted by Jesus Saul/Paul was sent to the nascent Catholioc Church to have his blindness cured and to get a quick catechesis."

----chapter and verse, please?

[wmfights]

"Good question. I'm sure the fixed order is not that critical since they were probably smart enough to put the epistles together, the gospels together, the Hebrew scriptures together in some logical order."
__________________________

I think it's interesting because these earlier leaders in Christianity only responded after the fact and even then it was individuals who resolved the issue in response to a threat from others claiming to be Christians. IOW, it was not a group of "super duper" church leaders in Rome who definitively stated what books comprised the Cannon. I think the illustration of how the Canon was formed shows there was no one person with absolute authority in the early church.

[wmfights]

"Good question. I'm sure the fixed order is not that critical since they were probably smart enough to put the epistles together, the gospels together, the Hebrew scriptures together in some logical order."
__________________________

I think it's interesting because these earlier leaders in Christianity only responded after the fact and even then it was individuals who resolved the issue in response to a threat from others claiming to be Christians. IOW, it was not a group of "super duper" church leaders in Rome who definitively stated what books comprised the Cannon. I think the illustration of how the Canon was formed shows there was no one person with absolute authority in the early church.

[Uncle Chip]

"The Latin Vulgate appeared long before the heresiarch Luther".

---- and Latin bibles were in use in north Africa, and western Europe long before Jerome's Latin Vulgate.

[Uncle Chip]

"IOW, it was not a group of "super duper" church leaders in Rome who definitively stated what books comprised the Cannon."

----- Well said. Wherever the Word of God went in the form of the Scriptures, the people had all the authority they needed for instruction, correction, reproof, and doctrine.

[Conservative til I die]

Luther took the 'lock' off the scriptures and made them available to the world...Without Luther, you wouldn't have a bible to read in a language you could understand...

Total myth. Between the 7th and 14th Centuries, the Bible was available in at least a dozen vernacular languages. The main reason Bibles were not so widespread is because of the cost of making one. In the days before the prining press, Bibles were written by hand and were extremely expensive to produce.

Every Church had one for use in the Liturgy and possibly one more for public use. They were chained down to prevent theft of such an expensive item.

Of course, the invention of the printing press changed all that. The printing press was invented in 1454, before Luther even was born. The printing press not only allowed the Bible to become more accessible and affordable, it also allowed the supply to catch up to the demand for Bibles in the vernacular.

From one website on the topic, I find these statistics for vernacular editions (not copies) of the Bible, all before Luther brought the Bible "to the Masses":

20 in Italian, 26 in French, 19 Flemish, 2 in Spanish, 6 in Bohemian, 1 in Slavish, and 30 in German, for example the German Strasbourg translation published in 1466. To these editions of the whole Bible, must be added 94 printings of single sections, in the dialects of Europe. Besides these editions in the vernacular, there were 62 editions in Hebrew such as the 1477 Bologna Hebrew translation, 22 in Greek, and 343 in Latin, a language known to all the educated classes.

[Conservative til I die]

I see the connection between the Catholic church, the muzlim religion and some of the other Eastern religions as well as pre-Christian pagan worship...This connection is Mary, the Queen of Heaven...It is leading to an ecumenical, one-world religious movement...We can see the recent Popes moving in this directions as well...

You are now entering....

[Pyro7480]

Seriously, the Mohammedans don't see Mary as "Queen of Heaven." In fact, they put words in her mouth in their book of false scripture, the Koran. Also, pagans, whether "pre-Christian" or neo-pagan, ultimately come to hate what the Catholic Church teaches about Mary, since she is a "unreasonable" model of femininity.