Peter & Succession (Understanding the Church Today)

Ignatius Insight ^ | 2005 | Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger

[wea]

for a whole new take on this subject, catholicfundamentalism.com puts forth the theory that God can program in three dimensions. He programmed the world in a week, just like Genesis says. Free book to download if you think you can contradict any of it.

[wmfights]

"Wherever the Word of God went in the form of the Scriptures, the people had all the authority they needed for instruction, correction, reproof, and doctrine."
____________________________

Exactly!

I think the evidence of the Holy Spirit guiding these individuals is we argue translation and interpretation not about books that were left out. The myth "we formed the Bible" plays right into the idea that all the separate churches responded to one individual seated in Rome. the early church was never that hierarchal.

[Uncle Chip]

"20 in Italian, 26 in French, 19 Flemish, 2 in Spanish, 6 in Bohemian, 1 in Slavish, and 30 in German, for example the German Strasbourg translation published in 1466. To these editions of the whole Bible, must be added 94 printings of single sections, in the dialects of Europe. Besides these editions in the vernacular, there were 62 editions in Hebrew such as the 1477 Bologna Hebrew translation, 22 in Greek, and 343 in Latin, a language known to all the educated classes."

------ How many in English? and how many Wycliffe Bibles?
Oh, I forgot, his bones paid the price.

[adiaireton8]

We have the Magesterium. We have the Tradition. We have Scripture. That's what we have.

-A8

[adiaireton8]

Wherever the Word of God went in the form of the Scriptures, the people had all the authority they needed for instruction, correction, reproof, and doctrine.

This is utter historical fiction. The bishops had the authority from the very beginning. Just read Clement or Igatius or Polycarp or Justin or Ireneus.

-A8

[Conservative til I die]

------ How many in English? and how many Wycliffe Bibles? Oh, I forgot, his bones paid the price.

I dunno. The site didn't say. But I'm surprised to see the definition of "vernacular" has now changed to mean "English".

I checked Wikipedia (I do not necessarily vouch for the validity of this site) and see in Old English, there were several translations and glosses which you can find at

[wmfights]

"...We have Scripture."
______________________________

How exactly do you figure you have a monopoly on Scripture?

[NYer]

I'm sure the fixed order is not that critical since they were probably smart enough to put the epistles together, the gospels together, the Hebrew scriptures together in some logical order.

Good question!

You will find the answer here .

Apologies for not being able to pursue this further today but will pick up this thread again, tomorrow. May the Holy Spirit continue to enlighten your discussion.

[Uncle Chip]

'But I'm surprised to see the definition of "vernacular" has now changed to mean "English".'

---

Well if you lived in England you wouldn't be surprised.

[Uncle Chip]

"The bishops had the authority from the very beginning. Just read Clement or Igatius or Polycarp or Justin or Ireneus."

---- or Plato, right?

[adiaireton8]

I didn't claim that the Catholic Church "has a monopoly" on Scripture. But Christ did not leave us with a book. Christ left us with a Magesterium. Even a cursory study of early Church history shows that. From the Magesterium came the New Testament books, and from the Magesterium came the decisions concerning the contents of the canon, eventually ratified ecumenically in the fourth and fifth centuries. If you read the selection from Called to Communion at the very beginning of this thread, you will that then Cardinal Ratzinger is making the same point. The fundamental Protestant mistake is to take the Book and reject the Magesterium. But the authority of the former is dependent on the authority of the latter. The very notion of "Sola Scriptura" is completely absent for the first fourteen hundred years of Church history, until the time of Wyclif, Hus, and the major Protestant Reformers. Sola Scriptura is a novelty, not something that was present from the beginning. That is one of the reasons that Cardinal Newman said "To be deep in history is to cease to be a Protestant".

-A8

[adiaireton8]

or Plato, right?

No, Plato lived before the time of Christ. If you want to know what the early Church was like, read the Church fathers. It is an amazing eye-opener.

-A8

[Uncle Chip]

'Cardinal Newman said "To be deep in history is to cease to be a Protestant".'

---- "but to be deeper in history is also to cease from being Roman Catholic".

[Uncle Chip]

I have read them but cannot see anything having to do with the primacy of the Church of Rome or any office for a Pope. Those omissions were an eye-opener.

[Iscool]

We have the Magesterium. We have the Tradition. We have Scripture. That's what we have.

You can keep the Magisterium...You can keep your tradition...And you don't follow the bible anyway...

WE'LL keep the scripture...

[Iscool]

This is utter historical fiction. The bishops had the authority from the very beginning. Just read Clement or Igatius or Polycarp or Justin or Ireneus.

I beleive history shows that some of your church history is not credible...

Wasn't it Ignatius that ended up with two sets of the same epistles??? One, the longer set mentions NOTHING about the Catholic church...But the other shorter ones do...

Which one would you think is a forgery???

[GAB-1955]

Don't forget that the Protestant Church was not created de novo; the first churches held that they were carrying on the true traditions of the church universal that had been corrupted by Rome. We hold the Church pre-1517 to be our Church history, too.

[Uncle Chip]

Thanks to All.
It was fun -- gotta run.
Let's do it again sometime.

[wmfights]

"Even a cursory study of early Church history shows that. From the Magesterium came the New Testament books, and from the Magesterium came the decisions concerning the contents of the canon,..."
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When exactly did this Magesterium determine the canon?

Who was in this magesterium and where did they meet?

I know I can trace the formation of the Canon to specific individuals, places and times.

[wmfights]

"WE'LL keep the scripture..."
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FWIW, the Scripture was given to all of us. It's just a question of who wants to follow it.