Religion Forum Research Project: God is the Rock

Various | January 25, 2007 | Alamo-Girl

[Quix]

Whew! That was a lot of Scripture to make this point - whatever we are reading from the Holy Scriptures, let us yield to the Spirit so that we are not receiving His Truth with our vision and mind alone but are following where He leads us.

= = =

Indeed.

[Quix]

What's the point of an evangelical making a person a disciple as commanded by the great commission, then have to say, oh well, now I have to run it by Peter? Does not make sense.

= = =

INDEED!

[1000 silverlings]

But only Peter has the keys

Just out of curiosity, just what do you think these keys are? What does the bible say they are? Obviously they are not literal keys, so what are they?

[Claud]

What's the point of an evangelical making a person a disciple as commanded by the great commission, then have to say, oh well, now I have to run it by Peter? Does not make sense.

I don't recall ever saying this actually, or even anything close to it. Can you explain what you mean a little more fully?

Peter's role among the Apostles wasn't to rule over the Church like a dictator, but to protect and defend the original revelation that came to them from Christ. What's the chief executive supposed to do in the U.S....protect and defend the Constitution? That's Peter's role. That's the role of the keys. Not to change, not to arbitrarily rule on a whim, but to hold the fort in the Master's absence and make sure the place doesn't get wrecked in the meantime.

This notion that Peter and the Papacy *interferes* with one's walk with Christ...heavens no. God forbid! It strengthens and guarantees it.

[Quix]

As I regain my energy, I hope to start a thread on

WHAT IS WORSHIP?

Please consider, prayerfully ponder how you each might contribute to such a thread from your own Scriptural, personal experiences.

WHAT IS WORSHIP?

How do we know we are involved in worship?

How do others observe us to be authentically involved in worship?

How does God detect that our worship is authentic, with heart passion after Him?

What factors, traits characterize worship?

What behaviors characterize worship?

What priority is worship to have in the life of the beliver?

What are the hazards of worship, if any?

What are the contaminants of worship, if any?

What is/are the purpose/purposes; goal/goals of worship?

What is the Biblical result(s) of worship?

What are the Biblical standards of worship?

What is the Biblical model of worship?

[Claud]

Just out of curiosity, just what do you think these keys are? What does the bible say they are? Obviously they are not literal keys, so what are they?

Let's look at the passage. Does King James work for you?:

16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

We get an inkling here of what they are from the bolded phrase. "Binding and loosing" being a metaphor for legislative power. The keys represent authority to make laws on earth which will be ratified in heaven. Very sweeping and almost shocking statement that!

Now compare with Isaiah 22:20 ff.:

And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will call my servant Eliakim the son of Hilkiah: And I will clothe him with thy robe, and strengthen him with thy girdle, and I will commit thy government into his hand: and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah. And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.

The investure of the keys to Eliakim and Peter too were investures of authority. That is what the keys have always symbolized in Christian symbolism. Now, what exactly that authority entails is the million dollar question, and as I'm sure you know, Catholics and Orthodox for instance disagree strongly on exactly what the Petrine authority means. Frankly, I think theirs is a better criticism of the Catholic position than to say that Peter was not *given* any authority in the first place, which is plainly contradicted by Scripture.

[1000 silverlings]

okay, that's going to be quite a thread if it gets going

[Quix]

Maybe I'll go ahead and start it with just the questions rather than pontificate first with my own notions.

Thanks.

[1000 silverlings]

I agree with investures of authority.

We see in Isaiah 22, that "the key is carried upon the shoulder", certainly denoting the care of government, but in Isaiah the government is a monarchy, King David's monarchy. Eliakim (meaning God raises or God sets up) is a symbol of Christ, and He has been entrusted with the House of David (the monarchy). Jesus sits on the throne forever.

We see in Luke 22 that the Apostles are given the Kingdom and 12 thrones. The thrones appear to be equal.

All who go into the Kingdom also receive crowns and a throne

We also judge and are given crowns

1Co 6:2

Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

1Co 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

Re 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Furthermore no one enters the kingdom who is unsaved. Thus salvation is one of the keys, and thus the confession of Peter and our own, is a key. The Sermon on the Mount lists the rest of them.

[Mad Dawg]

We are talking about a statement made in Aramaic and remembered and written in vulgar Greek. I wouldn't bet the ranch on an interpretation that relied on the text alone.

To my way of thinking that's another reason to rely on holy tradition (as opposed to "the traditions of men"). Obviously there is another view which suggests that Jesus didn't speak any language very clearly.

I have seen all I need to see about this kind of debate. What is the maxim? If the facts are against you, argue the law. If the law is against you, argue the facts. If both the facts and the law are against you, pound the table.

Pound away, and much good may it do you. (Not you personally, you understand, I hope)

[Blogger]

Claud, Yes, there is a play on words here.

Look at the words (particularly the pronouns and adjectives) of the verse again:

Matthew 16:15-19

15He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Jesus says who do you (to the disciples) say that I am? Peter answers "thou art the Christ..." Jesus says "Blessed are you Simon son of Jonah... and I say to YOU, you are a Rock; and, upon this Rock (an it) I will build my church. He then goes back to directly referring to Peter.

As a side note, I was examining the Greek and had a thought. Some of this may hinge on a very small word, Kai (translated 'and') here and the vast majority of places but not always.

The lexicon says: 2532. kai kahee apparently, a primary particle, having a copulative and sometimes also a cumulative force; and, also, even, so then, too, etc.; often used in connection (or composition) with other particles or small words:--and, also, both, but, even, for, if, or, so, that, then, therefore, when, yet.

So, if I'm reading my lexicon right, The passage could legitimately be translated:

16Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ,the Son of the living God."

17And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

18"I also say to you that you are Peter, even upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.

Or... 16Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ,the Son of the living God."

17And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

18"I also say to you that you are Peter, but upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.

Or.... 16Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ,the Son of the living God."

17And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

18"I also say to you that you are a Rock, therefore, upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.

In all cases, the rock can legitimately (and I believe IS legitimately) be interpreted to be Peter's confession that Jesus is the Christ the Son of the Living God.

I do not claim to be a Greek Scholar, though I have taken Greek. I would be interested in seeing what others say about this possibility. I'm not saying that kai should be translated differently than it currently is; though I am raising the possibility. Thoughts anyone?

[Kolokotronis]

The position you have advanced is the position of the Orthodox Church. The Peter/rock wording is a play on the word for rock in Aramaic and Greek, petros/petra. Orthodoxy maintains that the rock Christ is referring to is +Peter's confession of Faith. The real foundation of course is Christ Himself.

The foregoing notwithstanding, that passage and 16:19 clearly demonstrate that +Peter was singled out for a sort of special authority, but not as a leader over the other apostles, which is pretty well demonstrated at the Council of Jerusalem, but rather among the apostles.

The interpretation of this passage by the medieval Church of Rome to imply, or better said, establish, that the Pope had universal immediate jurisdiction over all the bishops because he was the successor of +Peter was and remains likely the major reason for the enduring schism between Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism.

[Blogger]

Is it legitimate to translate Kai in some other way than "and" in this case (particularly since one of the rocks is a personal pronoun and the other is an it.)?

[Blogger]

Peter singled out with a special authority I do not dispute. He was an apostle. The apostles did have a different role in the church than we do today, and Peter was reputed to have been a pillar (one of at least 3). But you do not see him as being above the others. He was just a leader and apostle in the early church.

[Kolokotronis]

"Is it legitimate to translate Kai in some other way than "and" in this case (particularly since one of the rocks is a personal pronoun and the other is an it.)?"

I suppose you could, though I have never seen it translated any other way than "and" and when I read the verse in Greek, I certainly think "and" to the extent I do a mental translation, which, now that I think about it, I don't really do. If you do translate "και" as something other than "and", I think it ruins the word play. Actually the other translations of "και" you mentioned are usually seen in idomatic phrases of the sort we don´t see here.

[Blogger]

Okay. I'm cool with that. I see it as a word play, and find that such an interpretation is supported by the YOU verses THIS in the sentence.

[Kolokotronis]

"Okay. I'm cool with that."

:)

"I see it as a word play, and find that such an interpretation is supported by the YOU verses THIS in the sentence."

Precisely!

[1000 silverlings]

But you do not see him as being above the others. He was just a leader and apostle in the early church

Further evidenced by his own writing: He saw himself as just another elder

1 Peter 5:1

The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:

5:2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;

5:3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock. 5:4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so much for your encouragements!

[Alamo-Girl]

Excellent sidebar on the "keys." Thank you for the pings!