Posted on 01/29/2007 6:45:51 AM PST by stfassisi
Fencing with Bible verses is not a very profitable exercise. Have you read the article yet?
With God, all things are possible.
YOU: No. Never could, either.
You and GCC Catholic seem to have a disagreement about the current sale of indulgences.
Per this post
"Yes, indulgences can be obtained. That said, a vast majority are gained through prayers or simple acts of penance which cost absolutely nothing."
(And that said, there must be a "minority" of indulgences out there that CAN BE and ARE obtained through filthy lucre.)
And this post
"Some indulgences tied to a particular location (a particular shrine or the like), and getting to them often requires some money"
Thus readers are to understand that it is still possible for indulgences to be sold and that this practice continues to this day.
If one can't state one's "opponent's" position clearly, completely, and correctly, in terms with which he would agree, and which he would find inoffensive, one has absolutely no business commenting on the matter.
I think your position has been stated clearly in this post and in GCCC's posts. Again, Rome contradicts itself at the expense of the truth.
except Mt 5:48...
expect Heb 12:14
except Jam 3:2
except Rev 21:27
except 1 Jn 5:16,17
except Jam 1:14,15
except Mat 12:32
except MT 12:36
except 1 Cor 3:15
except 1 Pet 318-20
except 1 Peter 4:6
except 2 Tim 1:16-18
except 1 Cor 15:29,30
Which is pretty much the whole crux of the problem with purgatory. It chalks man's salvation up to his own abilities to save himself after the fact rather than to God's supreme power, judgement, and mercy.
i'll bet its more profitable than fencing articles.
either way i get my doctrine from my church, not newspapers.
which could as easily be speaking about hell plain and simple.
Douai Commentary...45 "With godliness"... Judas hoped that these men who died fighting for the cause of God and religion, might find mercy: either because they might be excused from mortal sin by ignorance; or might have repented of their sin, at least at their death.
46It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.
46 "It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead"... Here is an evident and undeniable proof of the practice of praying for the dead under the old law, which was then strictly observed by the Jews, and consequently could not be introduced at that time by Judas, their chief and high priest, if it had not been always their custom.
NO. What I said is that some indulgences are tied to a place or thing at a specific geographical location. It is a simple fact of economics that traveling somewhere costs money. This is NOT money that the Church gets.
What I was speaking to in the post of mine that you pointed out is that frankly, some of the indulgences aren't simple . (did you actually look at the list I posted?) Attending the first Mass of a newly ordained priest? Not particularly easy. Visiting the Stational Churches of Rome? Free to obtain, but not free to get there (unless I plan to walk/swim), and in light of that certainly not easy.
You cannot, and as ArrogantBustard pointed out, never could "BUY" indulgences.
Ping me when Jesus says to you, "Today, you will be with me in Paradise."
Mt 5:48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
-Which we can't be, it was proven over and over gain. That is why we needed the second Adam, to impute his righteousness to us,
Heb 12:14Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.
-see above
James 3:2We all stumble in many ways. If anyone is never at fault in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to keep his whole body in check.
-That's right, we all do stumble. There is one perfect man...
Revelation 21:27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.
-That is 100% correct. But we have already seen that all have stumbled, and we know that it is written that all have fallen short. That is why we need the one who lived the life we can't live, and died for our sins so we don't have to.
Christ didn't die for the righteous, but for the sinner.
I could go on, but you get the point
both of which are just as applicable if folks were already sent to hell but could be saved in the final judgement through the prayers of the saints (and their living relatives/aquaintances)
ping me when Jesus tells you you receive 'reduced time in purgatory'.
'all have sinned' there are no 'righteous whom Christ didn't die for; Christ died for all for all have sinned.
*Mary was nagging, huh?
Baloney.
1) ""Yes, indulgences can be obtained. That said, a vast majority are gained through prayers or simple acts of penance which cost absolutely nothing." (And that said, there must be a "minority" of indulgences out there that CAN BE and ARE obtained through filthy lucre.)" ...
To GCCC's list must be added various works of mercy. You can 'ass-u-me' anything you like ... but your assumptions tell nothing about Catholic Doctrine.
2) "Some indulgences tied to a particular location (a particular shrine or the like), and getting to them often requires some money" Thus readers are to understand that it is still possible for indulgences to be sold and that this practice continues to this day."
Last time I checked, United Airlines was not part of the Catholic Church.
Finally, your article linked DID NOT support your false notion that indulgences are for sale. In fact, it cannot ... nor can anything else.
If one can't state one's "opponent's" position clearly, completely, and correctly, in terms with which he would agree, and which he would find inoffensive, one has absolutely no business commenting on the matter.
I'll go with the Bible :)
I'm at a loss as to how someone can read them, and grossly misconstrue them, if one is reading them in good faith. It just boggles the mind.
In Matthew 18 our Lord mentions two separate things in His Parable, Gehenna and torturers. Gehenna being hell and eternity, where as torturers is shown in the following verse:
“Matthew 18-34
Then in anger his master handed him over to the torturers until he should pay back the whole debt. “
Does our Lord’s use of “pay back” and jail in many verses possibly indicate a purgatory of contrition for our sins for a definitive period? The person is put away for a period and then let back into society.
balderdash. It does no such thing.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.