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Quix, I'm going to jump in here because I can see you're undergoing an 'examination of conscience.' That's always a good thing.

Thanks tons for your kind words. I suppose that's reasonably accurate. Though doesn't feel like a 100% fit.

It would be relatively easy to capitulate wholesale except for the last 35 years or so of my life. I have tons of experience that screams the other direction. God has often used me in extremely difficult situations, cases, families, couples' lives etc. in rather . . . startling ways . . . to jar loose folks from fossilized destructive ruts. I don't know how else to describe it. I'll try, though.

First, the opposite forces within me. I used to be terminally shy and a chronic people pleaser coming out of the usual REACTIVE ATTACHMENT DISORDERed childhood. I habitually tried to please everyone every way I could in as many sacrificial servant hearted ways as I could virtually obsessively. Of course, most of that had very problematic results at best.

Persistently from fairly early on, my verbal skills--especially my writing would be triggered in provocative ways that seemed to produce the opposite of what I desired and abundantly so. Often, I'd retreat into more of a shell for longer periods before risking saying or writing anything again.

But even back when I was much worse than my flawed state now at hearing God accurately, God DEMONSTRATED with fruitful results that HE WAS USING MY CRAZY, even fiesty, pointed, fierce FOOLISHNESS in spite of me and further that He'd created me the way He had for HIS PURPOSES and I HAD TO QUIT whining and QUIT wishing I was a more foam and fur lined person with a teddy bear personna exclusively. Was not in the plan and was not going to be in the plan. So I'd best just get with the program and on down the road and leave the results to Him.

As I went through my Navy human relations intense group process staff position for 2 years and later into my PhD program and individual, marriage and family as well as group counesling, there came along many other similar opportunities and experiences.

At an innocent Baptist counseling center in San Diego, I seemed to get all the "MISSIONS IMPOSSIBLE." And, interestingly, once I'd tried all the gentle, polite approaches, I discovered repeatedly that creatively fiesty, satirical, mocking etc. sorts of dramatizations would result in great break throughs where nothing else worked.

ALSO, and much more troubling, there would sometimes come along a case where a given individual in the situation would react very fiercely and negatively--such as has happened hereon in these threads. I would be terminally bewildered and despondent. I'm still grieved whenever anything doesn't work out as I'd prefer and any person is offended or hurt--especially a believer.

But God began to show me something interesting over time and to speak to me sometimes gently and sometimes sternly about such happenings. Folks as irate, hostile and angry with me as the one most angry with me hereon currently--would--in 6 months, a year, 3 years, 10 years come back and declare more emphatically that precisely the things I'd said which had most angered them and most left them wanting to strangle me--had been used of God to eventually speak truth and life into their lives resulting in extremely redemptive changes in their lives.

At this point, I have dozens of examples of such.

The struggle is not so much conscience in terms of motives--I don't doubt my motives. But I still hate to see anger etc. result. Grieves me greatly. I prefer to see myself as a teddy bear lover and try hard to act like one.

But I also have a responsibility before God to play whatever role He throws in my lap as I told Him long ago He could spend me however He chose.

Do I just ignore His press within me? Do I ignore all those potential additional people who will be fiercely angry with me for months to years and yet come to a redemptive fruitful place PRECISELY BECAUSE I dared to be outrageously dramatic with them?

That's long been a very torn issue for me. The bottom line is that I always have to do precisely and only what I feel God would have me do. But I do NOT pretend [contrary to allegations otherwise] I do NOT pretend to have flawless hearing of Holy Spirit or anyone else. And I'm always grieved that I MIGHT have heard wrong.

My exprerience with Father is that He expects me to trust all such to Him whether my flaws or just the jury still being out on a given communication. That's still very hard for me to do in anything like the current situation.

I think that fairly well summarizes the tornness and whatever "exammination of conscience" may be going on.

How dare I consign any potential souls who MIGHT WELL benefit from the outrageous dramatizations to NOT having that opportunity just for my own face saving; my own comfort; my own desire to have unruffled friendships etc. Marriages, families, lives have been literally saved through such strategies, methodologies, risks.

I don't think true humility refuses confrontation, but I do think true humility prompts us to use language carefully.

I much agree. I hope the above helps you understand my tornness on that score. I have learned to realize that my words carry more weight and impact than I'd originally thought. Particularly such dramatic ones. But that doesn't let me off the hook. I still don't feel ALLOWED to thereby pretend that I must use ONLY winsome words in all cases and situations.

The long-standing misunderstanding or hard feelings between RCs and Protestants is something that's made immediately manifest when we can write while zealous and post while we haven't given time to proper reflection. I've done that myself, many times.

I certainly wouldn't claim to have NEVER done that. But I really try to do my more or less best to discern whether a given situation is worth that risk; if that risk is really called for or not, etc.

I also feel some added weight because I know my writing can be above average in forcefulness of even the general class of forceful writing and that just THAT aspect carries extra responsibility. Some folks can feel angered by the provocativeness and then more anger because they don't feel they can respond nearly as impactfully for whatever reason.

In terms of the RC's hereon, There seems to be a collective amnesia regarding the incredibly harsh, fiesty, fierce, assaultive phrases, sentences, posts, threads in the direction of my perspective and convictions. Yet, they seem to think they should get away with it without even a comment or quibble.

Most of those of my perspective don't get all that wound up over such because we just consider it as Standard Operating Procedure, mentality, attitude for at least a few if not many of the RC's hereon.

Yet, when anyone of us DARES to have the AFFRONTERY to speak also in intense fiercel language, then all ballistic hell breaks loose because we DARED to be such hypocritical heathen currs as to have the stupidity and sinfulness to DARE to question ANYthing about PRECIOUS EDIFICE MOTHER CHURCH.

But that's just not our reality. We don't buy into that trumped up elevation of an organization to a God-like status--or even to a sacred cow status. We refuse to buy into that reality. We shall always chafe, fight, assert against such a mentality.

We do so not so much because we believe we are 100% right but because we believe [as do the RC's] that there are related issues which ARE ETERNAL LIFE AND DEATH ISSUES. And therefore, are worthy a lot of extraordinary risks and efforts.

Sometimes enflaming a person's conscience is worthy, sometimes you can do that with very humble words, but when that happens you don't usually feel the need to think much of it afterwards because the language you used was so obviously non-confrontational.

Christ was often confrontational. I used to think with only the pharisees. But that's not quite true. He confronted Peter and a number of others in a less than ideally comfortable and winsome tone. But certainly his fiercest language was reserved for those who saw their religious constructions on reality above everyone elses and pure as the driven snow when the reality was quite different.

I'm not here to defend RCism. There are plenty here who can do that more ably than I can. Besides being the mongrel Christian that I am, I'm just beginning to learn my own way through doctrine and doctrinal mine fields, etc.

And, contrary to some public opinion, I'm NOT here to attack RC-ism 100% wholesale. But some things seem to be dreadfully important and eternal life and death issues worthy extreme efforts. It is difficult to impossible for some of us to feel peace in our hearts and spirits and minds to just walk on by on the other side of the road and wink at such gross problems--from our perspective. The RC's have a similar response to us from their perspective. Yet, somehow, their hostile extreme language is OK but our dramatizations are not???

And all this hate!? I haven't written a single word in the least bit of hate. I can IMAGINE why some folks would feel otherwise but the truth is that I have not. I HAVE highlighted incongruencies, gross excesses, contradictions, seemingly glaring hypocrisies etc. I'm not ashamed of that.

I wish you could read my '52 Baltimore Cathechism. It beats the latest version, by far, at least the parts of it that I've read. The reason that I wish you could read it, is that while there would be much you would disagree with, there would be much there that you would genuinely admire.

I don't doubt that.

Sometimes when you really allow yourself to experience another's point of view, with some sympathy, that is, when you come to the defense of your own views, that are in opposition to that other point of view, your defense can become rock solid.

Having long prayed for the capacity to put myself in another's skin and shoes, God has blessed me with such a capacity beyond my expectations. That does not mean my understanding is thereby 100% or flawless. But it has helped my compassion and understanding of others a LOT.

In terms of the RC's, I don't think they have a very accurate guesstimate on my degree of accurate understanding of their feelings and positions. But, there is no readily evident way to correct that which I can conceive of.

For the record, I do see you as a loving person, this post is very good example of that. If you've done something to hurt somebody, intentional or not, and that other person doesn't want to forgive and forget, just let it go.

There's certainly great wisdom, there. But, my nature is to do everything I can imagine doing to try and AT LEAST LEARN ALL I CAN from all such--but WHERE REMOTELY POSSIBLE TO FACILITATE HEALING AND GROWTH FOR ALL CONCERNED and for all the relationships involved. Grandiose, I realize.

I don't mean to be preachy, so forgive me if I come across that way.

You did not come across in the least way preachy. But, YOU COULD HAVE BEEN SHRILL, FIERCE, MOCKING, FULL OF RIDICULE AND/OR ANY OTHER SUCH--and I'd have still tried hard to glean all I could from your input.

I have a LOT of grace for the modes and manner of communications. I do prefer folks to stay in the dialogue as long as it takes regardless. I have a hard time with hit and run patterns.

THANKS TONS for your thoughtful and Christ-like msg. I cherish any other inputs you may have in whatever form. NO need to treat me with kid gloves.