Will the Pope's Pronouncement Set Ecumenism Back a Hundred Years? (Challenge to Apostolicity)

Progressive Theology ^ | July 07

[fr maximilian mary]

Xzins, thank you for the post.

Kosta50, thanks for post #7.

Obviously Protestants aren't going to agree with the Pope and the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith's statement. While we share faith in Christ Jesus as true God and true Man, Savior and Redeemer of the human race (and I thank God that we do!), it would not be true ecumenism to "pretend" that we are all united on the points mentioned in the document. Actually the document does not set back ecumenism, it advances it in the sense that the Catholic Church is willing to put all Her cards on the table and talk about it. We believe what we believe because it has been handed down to us from the Apostles to this day.

I think that is why we are able to dialogue fruitfully with the Orthodox and that is, as Kosta50 pointed out, why we don't go to communion at each others churches--we have disagreements and we are dialoguing about them. Kosta50 and I both hope and pray for full communion between the various Catholic Churches soon.

Why is apostolic succession so important (and not just "spiritual succession")? It's not about bureaucracy, it's about valid Sacraments. If Jesus did not institute the Eucharist as His real presence and did not ordain the Apostles to "do THIS in my memory" and did not tell them "whose sins YOU forgive, they are forgiven", then the Protestants would be in the right: apostolic succession would not matter at all--just faith in Jesus. But if He did give Himself to us, flesh and blood, as the Bread of Life and set up a hierarchy and gave them power to forgive sins, then apostolic succession is most important even if their successors aren't so perfect. But the Apostles weren't perfect either, in fact one of them betrayed Our Divine Savior and many successors of the Apostles do so today (I'm not sure if it's one out of twelve today... it might be better or it might be worse!).

May the Lord give you His peace.

[N3WBI3]

"Ridiculous. It is a fact that the Roman Catholic Church can actually trace it’s leadership (i.e. the priests and bishops) back to the apostles. Or were you referring to something else?"

Really the Medici's can be traced back to the Apostles?

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you oh so very much for sharing your insights, dear brother in Christ!

You can’t help but wonder, though....it would be a blessing for me some future day to look down from my place in that “great cloud of witnesses” who’ve crossed to the other side to see that my descendants had remained true to the faith of their fathers.

I'm confident that Abraham would have preferred his descendants remain Spiritually faithful to the Lord.

But our perspective is different in His presence. So when you weigh anchor from this mortal realm and go home to that great cloud of witnesses, I am confident you will see everything the same way Abraham does now:

Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw [it], and was glad. Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. - John 8:56-58

[Iscool]

And do any of those popes even remotely resemble Peter??? Or any of the other Apostles, or disciples???

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you oh so very much for your encouragements! And thank you, blue-duncan, for that informative summary!

[blue-duncan]

Maybe it wasn’t he man who makes the job; just maybe it was the................popemobile.

http://www.worldcarfans.com/3050610.001/75-years-of-mercedes-benz-popemobile

[xzins]

And do any of those popes even remotely resemble Peter??? Or any of the other Apostles, or disciples???

I was thinking "Herod the Great."

[Frumanchu]

Why is apostolic succession so important (and not just "spiritual succession")? It's not about bureaucracy, it's about valid Sacraments. If Jesus did not institute the Eucharist as His real presence and did not ordain the Apostles to "do THIS in my memory" and did not tell them "whose sins YOU forgive, they are forgiven", then the Protestants would be in the right: apostolic succession would not matter at all--just faith in Jesus. But if He did give Himself to us, flesh and blood, as the Bread of Life and set up a hierarchy and gave them power to forgive sins, then apostolic succession is most important even if their successors aren't so perfect. But the Apostles weren't perfect either, in fact one of them betrayed Our Divine Savior and many successors of the Apostles do so today (I'm not sure if it's one out of twelve today... it might be better or it might be worse!).

I disagree, friend. It is not about the Sacraments. It's about authority. Let me explain.

Obviously you point to those portions of Scripture regarding your view of the Sacrament and its validity. Of course, as a Protestant I disagree with your interpretation of those Scriptures as supporting the notion that only a priest ordained within a visible institution headed by a successor of the Apostle Peter can rightly administer the Sacraments.

If I ask you why I should take your interpretation over mine, you will ultimately appeal to the authority of the Roman Catholic Church to rightly interpret those Scriptures and forumlate that doctrine.

If I ask where the Roman Catholic Church was institutionally granted such authority, you will ultimately appeal to Scripture (Matt 16:18, ect).

If I ask you why I should take the Roman Catholic Church's interpretation of those Scriptures over mine, you will ultimately appeal to the authority of the Roman Catholic Church to rightly interpret those Scriptures and forumlate doctrine.

If I ask where... (you get the point)

All issues of disagreement between us will ultimately come back to the authority of the Roman Catholic Church. I say this in the spirit of your comments earlier in that post. There is little that will ever be gained by dialog between us until we address this issue head on.

[xzins]

Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. - John 8:56-58

1Co 2:9 - But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

The Apostle Paul agrees with you, sister. I am sure you are right. All things WILL work together for good for us Christians.

[xzins]

Are you suggesting there is circular reasoning going on?

How does one take on the circular argument that appeals to the authority of the RCC?

[kawaii]

So, to bring it all together, you're pointing to differences in practice between the early church and some current Protestant churches as proof against their claims of being true churches of Christ, but are dismissing differences in practice between the early church and the present day Roman Catholic churches as valid because of their claim of being true churches of Christ.

you've got it backwards mate. protestants have always accused the Catholics and Orthodox of not being true churches on account of practices (like the Eucharist and beleif that it's really the Body and Blood of Christ, like Confession, like icons, etc) if i had a dollar for every time some protestant zealot accused the Apostolic churches of idolotry I could afford to debunk it with a documentary and pay to air it.

[kawaii]

which makes me wonder how many protestants have ever stopped by to examine Orthodox worship which they harry from afar.

[OLD REGGIE]

Act 1:22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

I will repeat xzin's question:

Who ordained Paul?

[kawaii]

If I ask where the Roman Catholic Church was institutionally granted such authority, you will ultimately appeal to Scripture (Matt 16:18, ect). If I ask you why I should take the Roman Catholic Church's interpretation of those Scriptures over mine, you will ultimately appeal to the authority of the Roman Catholic Church to rightly interpret those Scriptures and forumlate doctrine.

Whereas protestants appeal to which authority? the authority of law school flunkies to reinterpret for themselves?

[xzins]

To be honest with you, I specifically went to both a Byzantine Catholic and an Orthodos (Russian immigrants) near Marblehead, Ohio in June to check out their worship.

I had hoped for matins or vespers, but both churches had only Sunday services, and I was there only through the weekdays.

I’ll get there eventually, though.

[kawaii]

Holy Assumption in Marblehead says they have Saturday vespers...

http://www.holyassumptionmarblehead.org/schedule.html

that said our old oca church had to cut back on services as we had no priest (the OCA reassigned him and didn’t send a new one) eventually one who was more less retired offered to take up the reins and he travels about an hour on a very regular basis to manage...

the rocor parish we go to has 2 priests and usually has services saturday sunday and weekdays...

[kosta50]

If you are a Lutheran, your religion was founded Chirst. If you belong to the Church of England, your religion was founded by Christ. If you are a Presbyterian, your religion was founded by Christ...If you are..."Jehovah's Witnesses," your religion was founded by Christ

Nice try, PM.  You forgot the Gnostics. Notice how you altered the argument and snuck in "your rleigion" instead of the "your church." Obviousy any congregation that believes in Jesus as some form of deity can say that its religion was founded by Christ, although you clevery exclude LDS and Christian Scientists, but include Jehovah's Witnesses (who deny Holy Trinity). Lord have mercy!

Do LDS not claim that Jesus is their Savior (Christ)? So, by what authority do you exclude them? Is Protestantism not the ultimate in church-creation based on individual "understanding" of the Bible, with each person being his/her own "pope?" Is this not the ultimate in narcissism? Is denying the combined widsomm of the Church and reinterpreting everything according to one's own fancy not the ultimate in arrogance and pride?

Changing church for religion doesn't change the fact that God gave His Church to His Apsotles in 33 AD, that He gave them the keys to bind and loosen, and that they bound others to carry in their steps ever since then. That authority was not arrogated to others at they wished. So, those who assume that authority do so on their own and cannot claim that it comes from Christ.

[xzins]

I was there Monday through Thursday at our denominational conference. I stopped at the church to see the sign, but saw they had only “Sunday” services. (I lumped the Sat vespers in with Sunday, considering it a “Sunday eve” service.)

It’s an attractive little chapel. The Byzantine, otoh, was right alongside the lake and had managed to purchase landed that was bounded on one side by a state park. They had a really attractive building and location.

I really had hoped that one or the other would be open.

[P-Marlowe]

you clevery exclude LDS and Christian Scientists, but include Jehovah's Witnesses (who deny Holy Trinity). Lord have mercy!

They were deleted in the next post.

[kosta50]

Who ordained Paul?

St. Paul says he was made Apostle of Christ. Apparently, at one point the other Apostles agreed, so it is possible that he was ordained by them. Regardess, I am not sure there is a Paulean apostolic lineage. But all Protestants accept his teaching as legitimate, probably more than others'. He considered his primary mission preaching the gospel.