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To: Gamecock; Dr. Eckleburg; P-Marlowe; blue-duncan; jude24; Frumanchu; Corin Stormhands; Alamo-Girl

See challenges to claims of Apostolic succession.

Legitimate arguments.

Since spiritual lineage is more important, than secular lineage, the Apostolic argument is important in the spiritual sense. We want to be in the teaching, doctrinal lineage of the Apostles.

That is truly Apostolic.


2 posted on 07/22/2007 7:43:33 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain And Proud of It! Those who support the troops will pray for them to WIN!)
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To: xzins; Dr. Eckleburg; P-Marlowe; blue-duncan
The Spiritual succession is the only one that matters.

The Apostles should have learned that decisively when Cornelius and family received the Holy Spirit before Peter finished talking or baptizing him.

While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. - Acts 10:44

And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as [he did] unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? - Acts 11:15-17

And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men [and] brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as [he did] unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. - Acts 15:7-9

And again, when Christ selected Paul, personally and in power on the road to Damascus. And the method whereby Paul received the Gospel:

But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught [it], but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it: And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers. But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called [me] by his grace, To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.

Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days. But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother. – Galatians 1:11-19


16 posted on 07/22/2007 8:59:06 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: xzins
We want to be in the teaching, doctrinal lineage of the Apostles.

Teaching/doctrine of the Apostles as determined by whom?

-A8

115 posted on 07/23/2007 9:16:17 AM PDT by adiaireton8 ("There is no greater evil one can suffer than to hate reasonable discourse." - Plato, Phaedo 89d)
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To: xzins
Since spiritual lineage is more important, than secular lineage, the Apostolic argument is important in the spiritual sense. We want to be in the teaching, doctrinal lineage of the Apostles.

The Catholic Church agrees. That is why it denies the claims of Apostolicity of the Churches of England and Sweden, and the Methodists. These three Churches do not share the Catholic faith. Therefore, any Bishops they might have are not sucessors of the Apostles.

162 posted on 07/23/2007 11:06:13 AM PDT by Andrew Byler
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!Placemarker to follow the debate
167 posted on 07/23/2007 11:15:03 AM PDT by MHGinTN (You've had life support. Promote life support for those in the womb.)
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To: xzins
Peace in the Lord Jesus!

You have pointed to the third argument of the article as legitimately calling into question Apostolic succession in the Catholic Church: to quote from the article the earliest bishops in certain places are simply unknown, and the lists produced in the third and fourth centuries that purported to identify every bishop back to the founding of the church in a particular area were often historically unreliable.

The Apostles and the their successors were busy teaching and writing and baptizing--they were trying to win the world for Christ through the Gospel. So it is no surprise that the early Church didn't have many chronicles written by what we call historians. Lists weren't important--although we do have the complete list when it comes to St. Peter and his successors in Rome.

At any rate, apostolic succession is evident in the very writings of St. Paul to St. Timothy (who received his ministry as Bishop by the "laying on of hands"--St. Paul ordained him 2 Tim 1:6). "Therefore, my child, be strengthened in the grace which is in Christ Jesus; and the things that thou hast heard from me through many witnesses, commend to trustworthy men who shall be competent in turn to teach others." (2 Timothy 2:2)

St. Clement, the third to succeed St. Peter as Bishop of Rome writes:

"Through countryside and city [the apostles] preached, and they appointed their earliest converts, testing them by the Spirit, to be the bishops and deacons of future believers. Nor was this a novelty, for bishops and deacons had been written about a long time earlier. . . . Our apostles knew through our Lord Jesus Christ that there would be strife for the office of bishop. For this reason, therefore, having received perfect foreknowledge, they appointed those who have already been mentioned and afterwards added the further provision that, if they should die, other approved men should succeed to their ministry" (Letter to the Corinthians 42:4–5, 44:1–3 [A.D. 80]).

It is noteworthy that in the early Church, when St. John the Evangelist was still alive, the Church in Corinth (which had its own Bishop) appealed to the Successor of St. Peter—Pope St. Clement—to settle a dispute. Apostolic succession and authority.

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing on high in Christ." (Eph. 1:3).

Please pray for me, and be assured of mine. God bless...

432 posted on 07/24/2007 6:43:13 AM PDT by fr maximilian mary ("Imitate Jesus, love Mary as your Mother." Mother Teresa of Calcutta)
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To: xzins
[.. See challenges to claims of Apostolic succession. ..]

The Apostles chose Mattias to replace Judas..
The Holy Spirit chose Saul of Tarsus to replace him..

Who had the authority?.. Who's choice bore fruit?.

Apostolic succession flys in the face of the Holy Spirit's authority...
Is the Holy Spirit NOT GOD?..

Who is in charge of the "Church"?.. men with titles or the Holy Spirit?..

1,124 posted on 07/27/2007 8:33:38 AM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole....)
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