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To: P-Marlowe; Dr. Eckleburg; Kolokotronis; xzins; kosta50; blue-duncan
Thank you so much for your insightful post, P-Marlowe!

I have used the terms “physical” and “spiritual” to explain my musings on the difference in aspect – but I rather like your terms “self centered” versus “God centered.”

The operative point is indeed “self.” One side’s understanding is cast from the physical aspect of an observer. The other side’s understanding removes self from the observation.

Both sides may have the best intentions – seeking to love God absolutely and as a distant second, seeking to love all neighbors unconditionally. (Matt 22)

Nevertheless the two aspects are opposite at the root because they see different things due to this "centering."

The sufficiency of the blood of Christ is the most important example, as you have suggested here. The self centered side would say the blood of Christ is not enough, that man has a part. The God centered side would say the blood of Christ is altogether sufficient, man is immaterial.

Here are some other examples of the differences which result from "centering" - IMHO, of course:

The visible church versus the invisible church

Succession from the apostles by physically laying on hands followed by the indwelling Spirit versus succession by the Spirit’s indwelling regardless of which hands if any were laid.

The good a man does in this life versus the good that God does through a man in this life.

Those who submitted to God’s will (Mary, Peter, Saints, etc.) versus that God accomplished His will using men of His choosing.

That accoutrements help in worship (attire, location, visual and physical aids such as rosaries, art, etc.) versus that accoutrements misdirect worship away from God and to the accoutrements themselves.

The gathering of the Scripture (councils, etc.) versus the Scriptures themselves.

Peter is the rock versus God is the Rock

Trust religious authorities versus trust God

Transubstantiation versus Who is being remembered

Sacraments versus grace

and so on…

That said, I do not see the difference as a Spiritual “poison pill” because, when I look at the apostles themselves some were self oriented and some were God oriented – they covered the gambit, so to speak.

Again my disclaimer – I personally eschew all the doctrines and traditions of men across the board, so I’m not speaking here for or against any of them.

Nevertheless, the leading I have in the Spirit is emphatically God-centered and thus my mantra (to which both sides would surely agree:)

To God be the glory!!!


9,500 posted on 10/20/2007 11:20:52 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl
I have used the terms “physical” and “spiritual” to explain my musings on the difference in aspect...

LOL

I think it is a very good way to describe the differences, but boy did I get the typical "anti-catholic" bomb when I presented the idea.

I think the idea is still just as valid.

9,502 posted on 10/20/2007 12:19:18 PM PDT by wmfights (LUKE 9:49-50 , MARK 9:38-41)
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To: Alamo-Girl; P-Marlowe; xzins; blue-duncan; HarleyD; wmfights; Forest Keeper; Frumanchu; ...
The operative point is indeed "self." One side's understanding is cast from the physical aspect of an observer. The other side's understanding removes self from the observation.

Both sides may have the best intentions – seeking to love God absolutely and as a distant second, seeking to love all neighbors unconditionally. (Matt 22)

Nevertheless the two aspects are opposite at the root because they see different things due to this "centering."

The sufficiency of the blood of Christ is the most important example, as you have suggested here. The self centered side would say the blood of Christ is not enough, that man has a part. The God centered side would say the blood of Christ is altogether sufficient, man is immaterial.

Amen to a careful and Scriptural statement of what actually constitutes righteousness -- is it ours and of this world or is it His and of the Spirit?

All things are made for and through and by Jesus Christ. But as blue-duncan said, Jesus Christ does not intercede for all men. Therefore all men are not acquitted of their sins by Christ, and not all men receive the gift of the Holy Spirit who furnishes God's elect with new eyes and new ears and a new heart with which to believe in Jesus Christ and be saved.

"That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again." -- John 3:6-7

God's family, made up of Christ's sheep who will be born again by the Holy Spirit at a time of God's choosing, was named and numbered before the foundation of the world according to God's good pleasure and not through anyone's own righteousness.

"For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth...

What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone" -- Romans 9:11;30-32

And faith is a gift from God given through the Holy Spirit to every member of God's family.

"Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion.

And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?

To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." -- Isaiah 8:18-20.

Do men determine whether or not there is light within them, or does God?

"And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth." -- Acts 22:14

God's plan of salvation is perfect and He accomplishes everything He has planned.

"Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost." -- 1 Corinthians 12:3

9,508 posted on 10/20/2007 1:25:32 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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