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To: Esther Ruth; armydoc
armydoc: A major point of the Gospel of John is that you cannot worship the Father without worshipping the Son.

I agree that the Gospel fulfills the Old Testament. I am a Catholic. You are preaching to the choir. But I need to clarify that Jesus did not say that we cannot "worship" the Father without Himself. He said people cannot "know" the Father or honor Him properly without the Son. Mt 11:27 "neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him."

Jn 5:23" He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him." We should note that honor is not worship. Honor is providing proper respect. (Note: Jesus said this in response to those who wanted to kill him because He talked about forgiving sin. Forgiveness of sin has to do with salvation, not worship or even the value of worship.)

EstherRuth: There is also no salvation outside of Jesus Christ and His name must be called on only by each individual for there is no other name that may be called upon to be saved - there is only one mediator between man and God, that being Jesus Christ - and the name of Jesus Christ must be confessed as Lord, God, Savior for salvation.

I agree that Christ bore all our sins and provides salvation to us and all those in the old testament who awaited the savior. All graces flow from Christ. He is our judge and savior. The Church also professes this. Did the Vatican not just publish the document "Responses to Some Questions Regarding Certain Aspects of the Doctrine on the Church" that deals with this. Again you are preaching to the choir.

If you must preach, then preach, I nor the Church will disagree with the truth you speak. And, it may help some folks to learn from what we post. I will try to clarify any questionable statements in charity. But, nothing you have written refutes the fact that Muslims worship the same God as we.

We are on the same page! Muslims are in heresy and will remain so unless they convert. But they do worship the same God as we. Do you have any facts that prove they do not worship the same God. (Note: we all agree (including the Church) that Muslims do not worship Him as Christians (same with the Jews)).
91 posted on 08/16/2007 4:58:25 AM PDT by klossg (GK - God is good!)
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To: klossg
But I need to clarify that Jesus did not say that we cannot "worship" the Father without Himself. He said people cannot "know" the Father or honor Him properly without the Son

Help me here- are you saying that Muslims can "worship" the Father without "knowing" or "honoring" him??

But they do worship the same God as we.

Christians worship the Triune God. Muslims consider us polytheists for this. The Trinity cannot be parsed. One cannot "know", "honor", or "worship" the Father without the Son. Jesus said that the Pharisee's father was the devil, because they did not recognize Jesus as the Son. Muslims themselves see the distinction clearly; they certainly don't believe we worsip the same God. IMHO, this is one of the most dangerous aspects of modern Catholicism.
93 posted on 08/16/2007 5:30:37 AM PDT by armydoc
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To: klossg

And what about the verses in post #89 from 2John - what do you think?


94 posted on 08/16/2007 6:28:12 AM PDT by Esther Ruth
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