Posted on 09/10/2007 12:16:21 PM PDT by NYer
I was somewhat incorrect, it was Pope Leo XIII who issued a letter in 1986 stating that Anglican orders, from the Catholic theological position, are not valid.
Pax Domine
Ok, I will get this corrrect, It was Pope Leo XIII and the letter was in fact 1896.
Sorry about my goof ups.
Pax Domine
Fleeing a church that was imploding in itself.
Not quite right but not quite wrong. The Bull Apostolicae Curae indeed was issued by H.H. Leo XIII in 1896 and held that Anglican orders had been invalid since the change in the words of consecration of bishops instituted by King Edward VI (or, more properly, his radical protestant advisors, since he was 9 or so at the time and had no opinion other than what he was told.)
However, there were talks in the works in the late 60s for a concordat, along the lines of what was being discussed with the Lutherans, including (rumor had it) a revisiting of Apostolicae Curae. But the ordination of women stopped that in its tracks, and the Bishop of New Hampster killed it stone cold dead.
“A recent study by Catholic University in Washington estimated that making celibacy optional likely would quad ruple the number of priests. “
to put it bluntly, this is total BS!!!!!!!!!
the number of heretics and bad priests would quadrouple and good priests would leave.
He just wants to get into some new habits.
I reckon the deciding factor would be if liberal bishops were allowed to keep doing what they are doing. If the discipline of celibacy was relaxed, it could be a good thing or a bad thing depending on what the mitred ones are allowed to get away with in their areas.
Freegards
Sorry, my Catholic history isn’t that good. All I remember was reading something about it.
“Every validly consecrated bishop, including heretical, schismatic, simonistic or excommunicated bishops, can validly dispense the Sacrament of Order, provided that he has the requisite intention, and follows the essential external rite (set. Certa). Cf. D 855, 860; CIC 2372.” 1952 Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Dr. Ludwig Ott, pp. 456.
Maybe that was what I was thinking of.
The difference, of course, is that the Anglican bishops during the reign of Edward VI were never properly consecrated, due to the alteration in the words. The radical protestant regents, believing in "every man his own priest," removed from the words any indication that the bishop or priest received any special powers via the Holy Spirit. Since that intention was allied to the removal of the necessary words, the effect was to invalidate the consecrations.
But that's pretty complicated and technical. I actually read Apostolicae Curae because of course I was interested in the question. That (the validity of Anglican orders) was one of the two beliefs I had to consciously give up in becoming Catholic. The other was the supremacy of the Pope. But, as my husband told our new rector, it was obvious from the way events had played out that we had been grievously in error! As he so elegantly put it, "We can deal!"
I should say... my Pastor (and his twin brother) are converts. They were Anglican priests from Australia for 25 years and now they’ve been Roman Catholic for 20. They look so cute when they’re standing in the Sanctuary together. They’re turning 70 this week. Really quite a fascinating story, those two. I think they’ve both done considerable time in the chaplain corps. If I have the story right, Father Bruce was the pastor, or vicar, if that’s the right term, when the parish was started in the 1980s, left, and now has been reappointed.
Father that we had before was married, I believe. He seems like a fine man... in his sixties now, probably pushing seventy.
Did it seem odd to you when you came in that people actually called the priests Father? I mean, in the Episcopal church their title was Father, and sometimes during a service or other ecclesial event I would call them Father Henry, or Father Sam. But when I was rehearsing for my confirmation, the lady in charge started saying “Father will cross here, and when he comes up to you say such and such, it made me feel funny. At first it creeped me out, but now I like it. It feels like a healthy submission to my elder.
I assert that the number of priests would increase TENFOLD if the Church would only allow: women priests, homosexual priests, contraception, abortion, divorce and remarriage, optional Mass on Sundays, no Holy Days of Obligation, rejection of the perpetual virginity of Mary, elimination of the Papacy and what ever else you think might be most pleasing to the ‘Masses.’
I assert that the number of priests would increase TENFOLD if the Church would only allow: women priests, homosexual priests, contraception, abortion, divorce and remarriage, optional Mass on Sundays, no Holy Days of Obligation, rejection of the perpetual virginity of Mary, elimination of the Papacy and what ever else you think might be most pleasing to the ‘Masses.’
It honors the office, not just the man.
Well, then you’d just have Episcopalians, and we already HAVE a buncha those!
I wonder why Catholic University even bothered with this study since the Vatican recently reaffirmed its requirement of mandatory clerical celibacy, which means that celibacy will not be made “optional” any time in the foreseeable future. The study is nothing but useless speculation and wishful thinking.
I guess we’ve all learned not to trust survey findings such as these without being able to review the study itself.
It seems to me that a man torn between being a Roman Catholic priest or having a wife and family would instead find a home in one of the Byzantine or Eastern Rite Catholic Churches in union with Rome where he could marry prior to ordination.
I seem to recall a spate of women's magazine articles -- maybe 20 or 30 years ago -- about the difficulties and stresses faced by ministers' wives -- little money, demands on their time and energy for church work and parish visitation and such, hypercritical attention to their children's behavior, etc.
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