HE INCREASES AND SHE DECREASES [Mary, Mother of God]

The Rock ^ | May 1994 | Mark Shea

[Mad Dawg]

Well, I guess this is another example of your not remembering what you are talking about? I mentioned the church after you questioned my reliability. I even gave the date within a few weeks.

The suggestion that I would know the identity of the kneeler (as if there were only one) is, of course preposterous. What, am I supposed to go up and tap the person on the shoulder, when I am 11 years old and in a procession, and ask for their ID?

You said
You will never see a Lutheran or any Protestant bowing down to a statue of anyone.

And I adduced a fact that impeached what you said. So you "made it personal". Okay. So easy to fix, if you wanted to and believed what you profess.

[Mad Dawg]

Yet I can distinguish between comments about my religion from comments about me, i.e. "deranged prom queen with a hacksaw going after her fellow students."

IN the words of one of hour familiars, HOGWASH!

IN fact, hogwash twice: First the characteris=zation of PC, corrected to fascism was made not of my religion but of my sense that you all were trying to dominate this thread. So it was a characterization of something I did.

Second,the prom queen statement was not made about you but about a fantasy/waking-nightmare somebody was having.

I used to say, back in my Protestant days, that works righteousness leads people to self-deceit. I still believe that, and I see it demonstrated right here by some Protestants.

Well it's been miserable, but I have obligations.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

I didn't say I saw a Catholic kneeling. I was thanking that person for allowing, as you do not, evidently, that I saw someone kneeling in front of a statue of our Lady.

You did not say "someone." You said "a Protestant."

In post 3,626 you wrote...

"I adduce yet again what was said in response to a post I made when Dr. E. said that one would never see Protestants kneeling before a statue of the Virgin -- and (this was a year ago and I didn't realize that Protestants now have a kind of filter whereby some Churches which protest against the primacy of the See of Rome are not "Protestant" -- why not? They make up definitions for everyhting else ...) I mentioned that at a Protestant Church in Manhattan I'd seen that very thing

Perhaps some think we don't remember what is written on this forum, but like Scripture, it's all here in black and white.

So you most certainly did NOT say it was a Catholic; you made the preposterous statement that it was a "PROTESTANT" whom you saw kneeling before a statue of Mary in some Protestant church somewhere in Manhattan at some point in time.

And what asked for proof of this bizarre scenario, you ridiculed the request.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

You said You will never see a Lutheran or any Protestant bowing down to a statue of anyone.

Why don't you show us the post rather than just giving us your memory of it?

[Religion Moderator]

Your post was pulled because it was a personal attack.

The Religion Forum is not ecumenic. Those who are offended by the town square format of open threads should stay away from them and instead post on the caucuses, devotionals and prayer threads where challenges and ridicule are not allowed.

[Religion Moderator]

Discuss the issues all you want, but do NOT make it personal.

[Mad Dawg]

I did show the post. I quoted what you said.

Some Protestants call people liars or imply that they are lying and it means so little to them to attack the reputation of a Catholic that they just forget about it.

You want the URL? Here you go:

You wrote : You will never see a Lutheran or any Protestant bowing down to a statue of anyone.

I answered:

This shameful lumping together of Protestants by RC's has just got to STOP, I tell you. It has to STOP! How LONG, O Lord! Why, more than 45 years ago I saw members of an outfit called the "Protestant Episcopal Church in the United States of America" kneeling to/before an image of the Virgin Mary. They sure seem to have thought they were Protestant, back then when words meant things.

I ask you and your familiars to note that this was before I learned that the definition of "Protestant" had undergone a traditional development and it no longer mean just people or denominations that do not acknowledge the See of Rome and aren't orthodox. SInce I have learned that I have tried to respect your traditions and no longer include the Episcopal Church under the heading "Protestant". But while some Protestants have tried and continue to try to impeach my memory, I can assure you that though I was not brought up Calvinist, I was brought up to think of myself as Protestant.

In any event, to my innocuous statement, unpardonable only in that it contradicted the sweeping an dunsubstantiated and unsubstantiatible dictum of a Protestant of note, you replied with

lol. And I guess if you say you saw it, then it must be true, huh?

and a reference and link to a fine Episcopal sermon, which had nothing to do with the veracity of my stated recollection.

Now I have done the work that you should have done for yourself, and I suspect it's useless (a statement about MY suspicions, not about you) because I have an opinion (statement about my opinions, not about you) on how you handle texts, even if, or especially if, they are your own words.

[Mad Dawg]

Is that why you said you wouldn't mind if the thread was pulled?

Why do you ask? Don't you think that's making it personal?

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Thanks for the refresher course. See, you can find proof when you want to.

And just in case you think I don't agree with my earlier statement, I'll repeat the line for emphasis...

"You will never see a Lutheran or any Protestant bowing down to a statue of anyone. You might find an occasional Protestant bowing to a statue of Christ, but that's it.

True then. True today.

Now let's get back to your assertion that some Protestant was bowing to a statue of Mary somewhere in some Protestant church. Where is the evidence for that?

And while you're looking for it, perhaps you can link us to the caucus thread that had its caucus designation lifted which had you so upset.

Thanks.

[reagandemocrat]

Why can’t God’s Mother help us to reconcile with her Son?

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Some Protestants call people liars

No one is calling anyone a liar, MD. A request for proof is not the same as calling someone a liar.

I asked for proof of my "Protestants do not bow to statues" line and you provided it.

Obviously such a request for proof can and does occur on these threads regularly, when and if someone has the evidence, as you yourself just showed us how it's done.

You have given evidence that I said "You will never see a Lutheran or any Protestant bowing down to a statue of anyone. You might find an occasional Protestant bowing to a statue of Christ, but that's it."

See? Easy. Now we need the evidence for the Protestant kneeler and the caucus thread.

[WileyPink]

And whenever and wherever the word of God is preached, it is good.

Is that why you said you wouldn't mind if the thread was pulled?

Dr. E, I have been exactly where you are now. I didn't have a thread pulled, but I did have caucus protection removed because of the phrase, "others believe".

Now, the accusation by some of these posters is that Protestants are "piling on". Believe me, I have been piled on. That is why now, I provide Scripture as the authority for my arguments. I've noticed too that when you ask for such evidence, the subject is changed beginning just another circular chain of questions that leads no where.

God bless you ma'am. Satan is strongest when we preach closest to the truth...and you are there!

In Christ...Alone!

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Why can't God's Mother help us to reconcile with her Son?

Good question.

Because nowhere in Scripture is it written that anyone helps Christ reconcile us to God. It is Christ's job alone. He died on the cross; He paid the price for our sins; He reconciled the fallen sinner to the perfect God; He alone is the sacrificial lamb; and He rose to prove it all true.

At the core of Protestants' distaste for all this Mariology is the fact that we believe we are witnessing glory that is due God alone being given to the creature and not the Creator.

Are you repelled by the sight of a wiccan bowing to a tree? Or a Hindu praying to a cow?

In great measure those errors elicit the same kind of response from Bible-believing Christians as do statues of and prayers to Mary and assorted dead human beings.

God tells us He's a jealous God and the Second Commandment is pretty clear. That's why we tell Catholics to read the Bible. God willing, they will find the truth for themselves.

I have many fine friends who are Catholics whom I believe love Christ with their whole heart. I also believe this is in spite of the church in Rome, not because of it.

"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." -- 2 Corinthians 5:21

Did Mary become sin for you and me?

[Mad Dawg]

And whenever and wherever the word of God is preached, it is good.

Seriously: You think of part of this thread as "preaching"? ScubieNuc thought it was debating.

Actually that explains a lot, in particular the presence of retorts and the absences of responses. NO wonder the civility of conversation and the reason of debate were not here.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

That is why now, I provide Scripture as the authority for my arguments.

AMEN. It's the only way for anyone to understand. And the understanding is all of God, by and for and through Jesus Christ. What a relief. 8~)

"Teach me, O LORD, the way of thy statutes; and I shall keep it unto the end.

Give me understanding, and I shall keep thy law; yea, I shall observe it with my whole heart.

Make me to go in the path of thy commandments; for therein do I delight.

Incline my heart unto thy testimonies, and not to covetousness.

Turn away mine eyes from beholding vanity; and quicken thou me in thy way.

Stablish thy word unto thy servant, who is devoted to thy fear...

Quicken me after thy lovingkindness; so shall I keep the testimony of thy mouth.

For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven." -- Psalm 119:33-38,88-89

I've noticed too that when you ask for such evidence, the subject is changed beginning just another circular chain of questions that leads no where.

Yep. But we'll never lose our equilibrium as long as we keep God's word before us, as your excellent post never fail to do. 8~)

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Please ping me when and if you get around to providing evidence for some Protestant bowing to a statue of Mary, as you asserted, and when and if you find the caucus thread that had its caucus designation pulled which you are complaining about on this thread.

[Quix]

I think the mind-reader needs a very, very serious complete overhaul.

[Quix]

Welllll, when the

—rubber Bibles,
—rubber histories,
—rubber dictionaries,
—rubber logic books

leave a mind . . . no telling what shape they leave it in . . . so I don’t fault them for failing to make basic distinctions.

Shoot—they can’t even make sense out of the Scriptures exhorting against images of created things and people! That’s VERY basic!

[Quix]

So you can’t answer a simple question without trying to give offense.

= = =

Oh, I VERY much answered trying very hard to avoid unnecessary offense quite vigorously.

That it was not taken so

is no great surprise.

I gave a clear answer. I also challenged the RC edifice reps to study the evidence IF they wanted a genuine dialogue about such . . . say vs . . . throwing rocks at one of my used to be hobbies, now duties.

[Quix]

WRONG YET AGAIN.

However, the post has sealed the issue for me of counting the lines of text . . .

Any who wish to help out on the Protty side, please let me know by FREEPMAIL.

The methodolog will be as follows unless someone presents a better idea.

I’ll put the months into a bowl or hat and draw 3 months out. Then, I’ll look for all the NON-CAUCUS RC threads which have been posted.

I’ll count number of lines in the threads in behalf of; in support of; about Mary in any of the typical sorts of ways she has been spoken of in this thread.

I’ll count the number of lines in behalf of Jesus on such threads and any other threads in the Religion Forum posted by well known RC edifice reps.

If more than i sign up for such counting duty, then the numbers will be averaged for the categories. It would be wonderful if we could get a handful of folks to do the counting.

A line of text should be 60 characters long for such counting purposes.

Sincerely,