Posted on 01/27/2008 7:56:14 PM PST by Manfred the Wonder Dawg
In Genesis 15, Abraham was having a "moment" (one of those hallucinatory visions) where he was hearing voices he attributed to God. The whole chapter is intended to justify Israel's claim to the region as something God-given.
In Genesis 22, God tests Abraham and when he is willing to kill his only son God stops him, because God was now convinced (!) that Abraham really did believe in Him.This is what it says:
Do not lay a hand on the boy," he said. "Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only so. [Gen 22:12]
It seems to me that the all-knowing God somehow wasn't really sure if Abraham feared Him, so in order to make sure he did, God subjected Abraham to this cruel test.
And again, it was Abraham's wiling less to act on faith (kill his own son) and, not on faith alone. Not even all-knowing God accepted his faith alone but wanted a proof-positive test of it. I think the story is a naive folklore with a twist.
It WASN'T action at the place "The Lord Will Provide" that made Abraham righteous, it was faith well before that.
NO it wasn't if God wanted to test him.
Christ does NOT teach that righteousness is earned by works. Instead, He says: John 6:28-29 : 28 Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?" 29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
In context of the whole section, Jesus tells them that in order for them to do the work of God, they must believe in the One He sent. You can't do Christian work without being a Christian, FK! Christians who do good works credit them to God, and not to themselves. Whereas someone who does not believe will credit good works to himself instead of Christ, but it's still God's work because all good is from God. .
Do you still believe that you are "made acceptable", i.e. saved, to God by the physical works you do?
The Bible says we will be judged for what we have done, FK. We will be judged (righteous or unrighteous) in the eyes of God based on our deeds; the Bible makes that perfectly clear
Kosta: and God even obliged Himself to reward us for obeying His commands.
FK: This is the first admission I can think of wherein an Apostolic acknowledges that God owes a debt to man for performance. We have been screaming this from the mountaintops as being Apostolic error for years, always to denial
You have a vivid imagination. I think it was pretty clear from the way I worded it that God doesn't "owe" us a debt except by His own will and integrity. When God promises something, it is He who obliges Himself, and he will keep Hos sword.
Your side's whole "certainty" of salvation is based on the biblical passage where God promises to never let go of His sheep. If you didn't hold God to His word, you would not be certain!
That is entirely irrelevant to me. Besides, I don't remember the Orthodox Church ever reading from Peter's epistles. I am sure the Church finds them useful for something.
Why is that clear, and why would it be necessary for him to have seen ALL of Paul's works to declare the ones he had seen scriptures?
Do you know of any scripture that is consists of one chapter? Besides, Peter would have said something had it been recognized as scripture. The truth is it wasn't, not until much later.
No, to the contrary. Only Christians can relate to God in a uniquely personal manner through Jesus Christ.
Again, as warned, that's what you get when you reject the truth and historicity of scriptures
It is? What does historicity have to do with loving your neighbor as yourself? What God is telling us is not a historical narrative, but a moral one which is current yesterday, today and tomorrow, and equally applicable to everyone.
Truly, if a believer doesn't hold the Word to be faithful, then the believer wouldn't believe. A word study of the Greek word PISTIS helps one understand the significance of faith and belief as expressed in His Word and how He provides.
For the imputed sins of all mankind, past, present, and future. Now that they have been judged by Perfect Justice, His Perfect Righteousness is free to grace us with forgiveness upon recognizing our faith alone in Christ alone, which He provides for us, for that faith is the same as that of the Son which was found to be righteous.
Testing is part of the believer's life in Christ after initial saving faith. It is more closely associated to continuing sanctification than initial positional sanctification.
Abraham was a condemned unbeliever before he was a believer by faith alone in what God provides alone.
Your last paragraph mirrors pretty much what I believe. God didn’t want ONE church to lord beliefs or control over all. Like the Tower of Babel, when men thought they could actually reach God with their own strengths and abilities, he scattered the church so it could grow in many different areas with all sorts of gifts. The Roman church and the Orthdox churches are only one small part of the entire church structure God made. Hey, and you and I are part of that church, hallelujah!!!
Whew, you sure have your work cut out for you. Your answers are good ones! Thank you for being a staunch defender of your faith.
Thanks for your wonderful labors in The Vineyard and your pings.
Thank you so much for all of those wonderful scriptures. :) You are so right that God makes a clear distinction and that He explains what our hearts should be focused on, spiritual worship, as you said.
I don't know how to discuss these types of issues with you since your presupposition is that the Bible is wrong and corrupt. No matter what explanations I could find, I don't think it would make any difference. For example, you say "This is an example of how Paul manipulated the Torah of all parts of the Bible to make it "fit" his newly invented faith-alone theology." If this is what you really believe then your faith should be the LAST to be based on the Apostles and what they taught. That is a contradiction.
Of course we can always blame these on "scribal" errors, which is very possible, but nevertheless no less serious in misleading a private interpretation to conclude something that was not in the original text. This, we cannot assume that the integrity of the original texts have been preserved without error.
The private interpretation is in assuming that the reference texts are incompatible with the NT texts. If we assume flawed or evil motives on the parts of the authors and God, then naturally there will be perceived flawed or evil results.
I found it; God said it was true. Jhn 3:14 “And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up”
That's an excellent find. Ah, if only things such as plain-as-day quotes from scripture (Jesus even) served as proof for all Christians. :)
Enat, it wasn't God, and it wasn't even Moses who said it. It was John, or whoever wrote this, who intentionally misquoted the Old Testament
There is nothing in it about the Son of Man (be adam which, btw, has no special meaning in Hebrew). John' didn't misquote; either he altered the OT verse to make it "fit" Christan theology, or a scribe who copied it did. Late 1st century attempts at "correction."
Regardless of the (im)morality of altering the Bible which is too common an occurrence in it, the fact remains that John's (or whosoever) verse doesn't prove anything about Exodus.
“Enat, it wasn’t God, and it wasn’t even Moses who said it. It was John”
Son of a gun, I thought it was Jesus who said it to Nicodemus, just before He said “For God so loved the world....” Imagine God letting John in all that He had planned after John was guilty of misquoting the “Lamb, slain from the foundation of the world”.
Your complaint is with God. I didn't write the OT, I just believe in it. And your comparison is false. No Christian today has cause to "follow the Bible" and kill people. But many Muslims believe that they are following the Koran in their murders. I have seen articles that have analyzed the Koran and it appears to me that the fundamentalists have a case. No Christian would have such a case.
Neither side "wantonly" murders; atrocities are "justified" as "God's" "plan" and the purpose of which is all for His glory. Thus the slaughter of Canaanite infants and even live stock is seen as "pleasing" to God.
God ordered such specific missions of specific people at specific times. I have no evidence that He has done so since Christ. No Christian has any Biblical justification to carry out such acts on his own. It is only the terrorists who believe they have justification, not Christians who follow the Bible.
I would say that the Koran equals or even pales when it comes to the cruelty of Exodus, Deuteronomy and Leviticus. To me they are all the same.
I have no doubt of it. :) But just remember that the cruelty that you see in the Bible is directly from your own God, as HIS WORD says and stands by. You yourself have said that Jesus quoted from the Septuagint, which related this cruelty that disturbs you. Yet, He never once said anything against it, now did He? In fact, He stood squarely behind all of these stories as matters of fact.
They all read the same. Senseless cruelty; that's all.
The difference in the passages you quote is that in those from the Bible they refer to God's actions or specific orders to specific people, whereas, in the one quote from the Koran, it appeared to give a general command to all people as they see fit. That's a huge difference.
There is no Christ in any of these.
There is no Christ that YOU believe in, in any of these. Your personal views of the Bible necessarily color your perception of who Christ IS.
Spare me the theatrics, please. I showed you that John misqouetd the Old Testament. If fact, he went a step further: he actually altered it for a purpose!
And you used that same altered verse to "prove" that Exoduse happened! LOL! And Forest Keeper couldn't get enough of it!
It's plain and obvious. But it's not to your taste, so the "spirit" will "lead" you to dismiss it. Right on!
You seem to have no understanding that God is outside of time and the Eucharist is a never ending sacrifice .
Why do you suppose that ALL of the Christians involved in New Testament canon believed the Eucharist to be Christ literally?
When you deny their 100% consistent belief of Eucharistic theology you have a New Testament decided by heretics and a Bible canon decided people influenced by the devil.
Therefore the NT canon had satanic influence by protestant beliefs.
All of this is very easy for me to see that the Early Church fathers consistent knowledge was guided by the Holy Spirit on how the scripture typology matched along with their unconditional love for others even through persecution they held firm to belief in our Eucharistic Lord.
The reformers were not worthy or humble enough to be the dirt beneath the feet of the early Christians who had the faith of the real presence.
I would rather be in hell than deny Christ's true presence in the Blessed Sacrament .
I sincerely mean this!
Here is a repost from last year
Why do you suppose Scripture puts focus on Bread and Wine?
Genesis 14.17-20, says....
After his return from the defeat of Chedorlaomer and the kings who were with them, the king of Sodom went out to meet him at the Valley of Shaveh, (that is the King’s Valley). And Melchizedek king of Salem brought out BREAD and wine; he was priest of God Most High. And he blessed him and said,
“Blessed be Abram by God Most High,
maker of heaven and earth;
and blessed be God Most High,
who has delivered your enemies into your hand!”
This is the first time in the Bible that anyone is addressed by the word coen, the Hebrew word for priest. As a “priest of God Most High,” Melchizedek “brought out bread and wine.”
What do we know about Melchizedek
1.he came from “nowhere”
2.he was a priest of the God Most High
3.he offered bread and wine
4.he was King of Jerusalem (Jerusalem means “Peace”)
Abraham paid tribute to him
5.Melchizedek is an obvious type of the antitype Christ, 6.Who is the High Priest (explicity after the order of Melchizedek).
Remember that the type (usually found in the Old Testament) is always inferior to the antitype (usually in the New Testament) that it prefigures: manna is inferior to the Eucharist; the Sabbath practices and sacrifices are inferior to the Mass
What about this....
Jesus said “Your ancestors ate manna in the wilderness and died...I am the living BREAD that came down from heaven...unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man you will not have life within you.”
Jesus was born in “Bethlehem” which, in Hebrew, literally means “house of Bread”
A manger was not a place where animals stayed. It was a trough where food was put to feed the animals. Mary laid Jesus in a place where food was placed
At the last supper, which was a passover meal, Jesus said “take this and eat it, this is my body.”
“I Am The BREAD of Life”
John 6:48
Scripture says “For indeed Christ our Passover was sacrificed for us. Therefore, let us keep this feast.” (1 Cor 5:7-8) This relates to Exodus 12:1-42. The Passover meal saved from the angel of death who was striking the first born children in Egypt. At a traditional Passover supper, the Jews ate the sacrificial lamb.
Paul is saying that this feast should continue. They don’t think that he was “re-sacrificing” Christ when he kept this feast.
We see the Eucharistic formula throughout Scripture. At table, Jesus takes . . . blesses . . . breaks . . . and gives the bread. He also took a cup of wine; after giving thanks to God, He gave it to His disciples saying, “This is My blood . . . of the [new] covenant.” Matthew 26:26-29; Mark 14:22-25; Luke 22:15-20. This is the same formula Jesus uses during the first Eucharistic celebration after the resurrection when He encountered two disciples on the road to Emmaus (see Luke 24:13-35). When the Corinthians drift from the proper Eucharistic formula, Paul corrects them.(1 Corinthians 11:23-29)
“Give us this day our daily bread.”
Matthew 6:11
This is from the prayer that Jesus taught us, the “Our Father”.
It means in totality, bread as food for our bodies and spiritual bread as food for our souls.
We are to continually offer up a sacrifice of praise to God.
Every day in every place a clean oblation is offered.
What, or who, is the sacrifice and what is a clean oblation?
It is an offering of praise to GOD, in the Holy Eucharist, the Body, and the Precious Blood of Christ. The Catholic/Orthodox Church offers the sacrifice of praise to GOD all over the world, every day in the Mass.
It has replaced the bloody animal sacrifices of the Old Testament.
That is why it is called a clean oblation.
In Matthew 26:26, didn’t Jesus take bread and say, “Take and eat; this is my body”?
And did he not beseech us to say in the Lords Prayer:
“Give us this day out daily bread”, (both physical for the body, and spiritual for the soul).
Matthew 6:11
How many non-Catholic ecclesial communities offer daily sacrifice, a clean oblation, as is clearly commanded for us to do by Holy Scripture? How many do not even offer sacrifice?
“Cleanse out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, as you really are unleavened.
For Christ, our paschal lamb, has been sacrificed.”
1Corinthians 5:7
“Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children. And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.”
Ephesians 5:1-2
“I have received full payment, and more; I am filled, having received from Epaphroditus the gifts you sent, a fragrant offering, a sacrifice acceptable and pleasing to God.”
Philippians 4:18
Jesus Christ is the “food” which sustains the spiritual soul which lives forever. He is the “bread come down from heaven” as we saw in John chapter six.
Can a mere “symbol” sustain the spiritual soul to eternal life?
Since the manna was the type or symbol of the New Testament reality, that question can be answered by another basic rule of typology
“An Old Testament type (symbol) never points to a New Testament symbol, but to a reality.”
So obviously the “food which endures to eternal life” cannot be a symbol, but a New Testament reality. It also cannot be a symbol, for another reason. It would violate yet a second basic rule of typology which we have previously discussed:
“The New Testament reality is far superior to the Old Testament type.”
So does this mean that Christ is sacrificed over and over again in the Eucharistic Celebration?
Again, what does Holy Scripture say?
“For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit;”
1Peter 3:18
“The former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office; but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues for ever. Consequently he is able for all time to save those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them. For it was fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, blameless, unstained, separated from sinners, exalted above the heavens. He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people; he did this once for all when he offered up himself.”
Hebrews 7:23-27
Christ was sacrificed only once and for all time. He is both the High Priest and the victim.
Catechism of the Catholic Church # 1366
“The Eucharist is thus a sacrifice because it re-presents (makes present) the sacrifice of the cross, because it is its memorial and because it applies its fruit: (Christ), our Lord and God, was once and for all to offer himself to God the Father by his death on the altar of the cross, to accomplish there an everlasting redemption. But because his priesthood was not to end with his death, at the Last Supper ‘on the night when he was betrayed,’ (he wanted) to leave to his beloved spouse the Church a visible sacrifice (as the nature of man demands) by which the bloody sacrifice which he was to accomplish once for all on the cross would be re-presented, its memory perpetuated until the end of the world, and its salutary power be applied to the forgiveness of the sins we daily commit.
(Council of Trent (1562): DS 1740; cf. 1 Cor 11:23; Heb 7:24,27.)”
We must remember that GOD is outside of time. Time is a measure of change for the things He has created. Since He never changes, He Himself is outside of time.
Consequently, everything from creation, and before, and for all eternity is now with GOD, including the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross. It is a continuous, never ending sacrifice.
How can something that never ends be repeated?
God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.”
And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”
Exodus 3:14
Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”
John 8:58
“And getting into a boat he crossed over and came to his own city. And behold, they brought to him a paralytic, lying on his bed; and when Jesus saw their faith he said to the paralytic, “Take heart, my son; your sins are forgiven.” And behold, some of the scribes said to themselves, “This man is blaspheming.” But Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said, “Why do you think evil in your hearts? For which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Rise and walk’? But that you may know that the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins”—he then said to the paralytic—”Rise, take up your bed and go home.” And he rose and went home. When the crowds saw it, they were afraid, and they glorified God, who had given such authority to men.”
Matthew 9:1-8
These classic verses graphically show the connection between healing of the body and healing of the soul. Jesus first cleansed the paralytic’s soul, and then He cleansed his body. Pay especial attention to the last line. To whom was authority given? Notice that the very last word in the verses is plural.
In summery
1. The body needs physical food in order to survive or else it will die.
2. The spiritual soul needs spiritual food in order to avoid spiritual death, the separation from GOD.
3. Spiritual food cannot be a symbolic gesture, simply because a mere symbol could not possibly feed the spiritual soul. Spiritual food is as much a reality as is physical food. It is the anti type of its Old Testament type of the manna in the desert. Recall that an O.T. type never points to a N.T. symbol.
4. Scripture tells us that there will be offered sacrifice every day in every place, a clean oblation.
How can symbolism of a sacrifice be a sacrifice in itself?
5. The bread come down from heaven, Jesus Christ, is that clean oblation, His sacrifice on the cross.
6. Jesus Christ was sacrificed once on the cross for all eternity.
7. Jesus Christ is both the High Priest and the victim, the Paschal Lamb of sacrifice.
8. Since He is High Priest forever (Heb 7:17), He is also the sacrificial Lamb forever (Rev 5:13-14).
9. Since GOD is outside of time, everything is now with Him. That one sacrifice at Calvary, which is always now for GOD, is made present for us during the Eucharistic celebration of the Mass.
10. The Mass is a re-presentation of that one sacrifice. We are re-presented at Calvary.
Here is another good Scriptural explanation of this...
Eucharist in Scripture
http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/scrip/a6.html
Here is what some of the Early Church Fathers say about Our Blessed Lord in the Eucharist
ST. IGNATIUS OF ANTIOCH
St. Ignatius became the third bishop of Antioch, succeeding St. Evodius, who was the immediate successor of St. Peter. He heard St. John preach when he was a boy and knew St. Polycarp, Bishop of Smyrna. Seven of his letters written to various Christian communities have been preserved. Eventually, he received the martyr’s crown as he was thrown to wild beasts in the arena.
“Consider how contrary to the mind of God are the heterodox in regard to the grace of God which has come to us. They have no regard for charity, none for the widow, the orphan, the oppressed, none for the man in prison, the hungry or the thirsty. They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not admit that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, the flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in His graciousness, raised from the dead.”
“Letter to the Smyrnaeans”, paragraph 6. circa 80-110 A.D.
“Come together in common, one and all without exception in charity, in one faith and in one Jesus Christ, who is of the race of David according to the flesh, the son of man, and the Son of God, so that with undivided mind you may obey the bishop and the priests, and break one Bread which is the medicine of immortality and the antidote against death, enabling us to live forever in Jesus Christ.”
-”Letter to the Ephesians”, paragraph 20, c. 80-110 A.D.
“I have no taste for the food that perishes nor for the pleasures of this life. I want the Bread of God which is the Flesh of Christ, who was the seed of David; and for drink I desire His Blood which is love that cannot be destroyed.”
-”Letter to the Romans”, paragraph 7, circa 80-110 A.D.
“Take care, then who belong to God and to Jesus Christ - they are with the bishop. And those who repent and come to the unity of the Church - they too shall be of God, and will be living according to Jesus Christ. Do not err, my brethren: if anyone follow a schismatic, he will not inherit the Kingdom of God. If any man walk about with strange doctrine, he cannot lie down with the passion. Take care, then, to use one Eucharist, so that whatever you do, you do according to God: for there is one Flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, and one cup in the union of His Blood; one altar, as there is one bishop with the presbytery and my fellow servants, the deacons.”
-Epistle to the Philadelphians, 3:2-4:1, 110 A.D.
ST. JUSTIN MARTYR
St. Justin Martyr was born a pagan but converted to Christianity after studying philosophy. He was a prolific writer and many Church scholars consider him the greatest apologist or defender of the faith from the 2nd century. He was beheaded with six of his companions some time between 163 and 167 A.D.
“This food we call the Eucharist, of which no one is allowed to partake except one who believes that the things we teach are true, and has received the washing for forgiveness of sins and for rebirth, and who lives as Christ handed down to us. For we do not receive these things as common bread or common drink; but as Jesus Christ our Savior being incarnate by God’s Word took flesh and blood for our salvation, so also we have been taught that the food consecrated by the Word of prayer which comes from him, from which our flesh and blood are nourished by transformation, is the flesh and blood of that incarnate Jesus.”
” First Apology”, Ch. 66, inter A.D. 148-155.
“God has therefore announced in advance that all the sacrifices offered in His name, which Jesus Christ offered, that is, in the Eucharist of the Bread and of the Chalice, which are offered by us Christians in every part of the world, are pleasing to Him.”
“Dialogue with Trypho”, Ch. 117, circa 130-160 A.D.
Moreover, as I said before, concerning the sacrifices which you at that time offered, God speaks through Malachias, one of the twelve, as follows: ‘I have no pleasure in you, says the Lord; and I will not accept your sacrifices from your hands; for from the rising of the sun until its setting, my name has been glorified among the gentiles; and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a clean offering: for great is my name among the gentiles, says the Lord; but you profane it.’ It is of the sacrifices offered to Him in every place by us, the gentiles, that is, of the Bread of the Eucharist and likewise of the cup of the Eucharist, that He speaks at that time; and He says that we glorify His name, while you profane it.”
-”Dialogue with Trypho”, [41: 8-10]
ST. IRENAEUS OF LYONS
St. Irenaeus succeeded St. Pothinus to become the second bishop of Lyons in 177 A.D. Earlier in his life he studied under St. Polycarp. Considered, one of the greatest theologians of the 2nd century, St. Irenaeus is best known for refuting the Gnostic heresies.
[Christ] has declared the cup, a part of creation, to be his own Blood, from which he causes our blood to flow; and the bread, a part of creation, he has established as his own Body, from which he gives increase to our bodies.”
Source: St. Irenaeus of Lyons, Against Heresies, 180 A.D.:
“So then, if the mixed cup and the manufactured bread receive the Word of God and become the Eucharist, that is to say, the Blood and Body of Christ, which fortify and build up the substance of our flesh, how can these people claim that the flesh is incapable of receiving God’s gift of eternal life, when it is nourished by Christ’s Blood and Body and is His member? As the blessed apostle says in his letter to the Ephesians, ‘For we are members of His Body, of His flesh and of His bones’ (Eph. 5:30). He is not talking about some kind of ‘spiritual’ and ‘invisible’ man, ‘for a spirit does not have flesh an bones’ (Lk. 24:39). No, he is talking of the organism possessed by a real human being, composed of flesh and nerves and bones. It is this which is nourished by the cup which is His Blood, and is fortified by the bread which is His Body. The stem of the vine takes root in the earth and eventually bears fruit, and ‘the grain of wheat falls into the earth’ (Jn. 12:24), dissolves, rises again, multiplied by the all-containing Spirit of God, and finally after skilled processing, is put to human use. These two then receive the Word of God and become the Eucharist, which is the Body and Blood of Christ.”
-”Five Books on the Unmasking and Refutation of the Falsely
Named Gnosis”. Book 5:2, 2-3, circa 180 A.D. “For just as the bread which comes from the earth, having received the invocation of God, is no longer ordinary bread, but the Eucharist, consisting of two realities, earthly and heavenly, so our bodies, having received the Eucharist, are no longer corruptible, because they have the hope of the resurrection.”
-”Five Books on the Unmasking and Refutation of the Falsely named Gnosis”. Book 4:18 4-5, circa 180 A.D.
ST. CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA
St. Clement of Alexandria studied under Pantaenus. He later succeeded him as the director of the school of catechumens in Alexandria, Egypt around the year 200 A.D.,
“The Blood of the Lord, indeed, is twofold. There is His corporeal Blood, by which we are redeemed from corruption; and His spiritual Blood, that with which we are anointed. That is to say, to drink the Blood of Jesus is to share in His immortality. The strength of the Word is the Spirit just as the blood is the strength of the body. Similarly, as wine is blended with water, so is the Spirit with man. The one, the Watered Wine, nourishes in faith, while the other, the Spirit, leads us on to immortality. The union of both, however, - of the drink and of the Word, - is called the Eucharist, a praiseworthy and excellent gift. Those who partake of it in faith are sanctified in body and in soul. By the will of the Father, the divine mixture, man, is mystically united to the Spirit and to the Word.”,
-”The Instructor of the Children”. [2,2,19,4] ante 202 A.D.,
“The Word is everything to a child: both Father and Mother, both Instructor and Nurse. ‘Eat My Flesh,’ He says, ‘and drink My Blood.’ The Lord supplies us with these intimate nutrients. He delivers over His Flesh, and pours out His Blood; and nothing is lacking for the growth of His children. O incredible mystery!”,
-”The Instructor of the Children” [1,6,41,3] ante 202 A.D.. ,
ST. CYPRIAN OF CARTHAGE
St. Cyprian of Carthage converted from paganism to Christianity around the year 246 A.D. Soon afterwards, he aspired to the priesthood and eventually was ordained Bishop of Carthage. He was beheaded for his Faith in the year 258 A.D., thus he was the first African bishop to have been martyred.,
“So too the the sacred meaning of the Pasch lies essentially in the fact, laid down in Exodus, that the lamb - slain as a type of Christ - should be eaten in one single home. God says the words: ‘In one house shall it be eaten, ye shall not cast its flesh outside.’ The flesh of Christ and the Lord’s sacred body cannot be cast outside, nor have believers any other home but the one Church.”,
-”The Unity of the Catholic Church”. Ch.8, circa 249-258 A.D.,
Description of an event in which an infant was taken to a pagan sacrifice and then the mother recovered it and brought it to Mass.
“Listen to what happened in my presence, before my very eyes. There was a baby girl, whose parents had fled and had, in their fear, rather improvidently lift it in the charge of its nurse. The nurse took the helpless child to the magistrates. There, before the idol where the crowds were flocking, as it was too young to eat the flesh, they gave it some bread dipped in what was left of the wine offered by those who had already doomed themselves. Later, the mother recovered her child. But the girl could not reveal or tell the wicked thing that had been done, any more than she had been able to understand or ward it off before. Thus, when the mother brought her in with her while we were offering the Sacrifice, it was through ignorance that this mischance occurred. But the infant, in the midst of the faithful, resenting the prayer and the offering we were making, began to cry convulsively, struggling and tossing in a veritable brain-storm, and for all its tender age and simplicity of soul, was confessing, as if under torture, in every way it could, its consciousness of the misdeed. Moreover, when the sacred rites were completed and the deacon began ministering to those present, when its turn came to receive, it turned its little head away as if sensing the divine presence, it closed its mouth, held its lips tight, and refused to drink from the chalice. The deacon persisted and, in spite of its opposition, poured in some of the consecrated chalice. There followed choking and vomiting. The Eucharist could not remain in a body or mouth that was defiled; the drink which had been sanctified by Our Lord’s blood returned from the polluted stomach. So great is the power of the Lord, and so great His majesty!”,
-”The Lapsed” Ch. 25, circa 249-258 A.D.,
“The priest who imitates that which Christ did, truly takes the place of Christ, and offers there in the Church a true and perfect sacrifice to God the Father.”,
Source: St. Cyprian wrote to the Ephesians circa 258 A.D:,
“There was a woman too who with impure hands tried to open the locket in which she was keeping Our Lord’s holy body, but fire flared up from it and she was too terrified to touch it. And a man who, in spite of his sin, also presumed secretly to join the rest in receiving sacrifice offered by the bishop, was unable to eat or even handle Our Lord’s sacred body; when he opened his hands, he found he was holding nothing but ashes. By this one example it was made manifest that Our Lord removes Himself from one who denies Him, and that what is received brings no blessing to the unworthy, since the Holy One has fled and the saving grace is turned to ashes.”,
-”The Lapsed” Ch. 26, circa 249-258 A.D.,
As the prayer proceeds, we ask and say: ‘Give us this day our daily bread.’ This can be understood both spiritually and simply, because either understanding is of profit in divine usefulness for salvation. For Christ is the bread of life and the bread here is of all, but is ours. And as we say ‘Our Father,’ because He is the Father of those who understand and believe, so too we say ‘our Bread,’ because Christ is the bread of those of us who attain to His body. Moreover, we ask that this bread be given daily, lest we, who are in Christ and receive the Eucharist daily as food of salvation, with the intervention of some more grievous sin, while we are shut off and as non-communicants are kept from the heavenly bread, be separated from the body of Christ as He Himself declares, saying: ‘I am the bread of life which came down from heaven. If any man eat of my bread he shall live forever. Moreover, the bread that I shall give is my flesh for the life of the world.’ Since then He says that, if anyone eats of His bread, he lives forever, as it is manifest that they live who attain to His body and receive the Eucharist by right of communion, so on the other hand we must fear and pray lest anyone, while he is cut off and separated from the body of Christ, remain apart from salvation, as He Himself threatens, saying: ‘Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink His blood, you shall not have life in you.’ And so we petition that our bread, that is Christ, be given us daily, so that we, who abide and live in Christ, may not withdraw from His sanctification and body.”,
Source: St. Cyprian of Carthage, the Lord’s Prayer, 252 A.D., chapter 18:,
I don't have a complaint with God. I have a complaint with people who claim God wrote the Bible and can't prove it. The so-called Bible-belivers do this so they can accuse others of being against God, and to place themselves in a self-rightous seat to judge, without having to prove anything.
If you can't prove it, then you can't use it as an argument, FK! Do you understand that? I am sure you do, but then everything you claim turns into dust.
If you believe it, that's fine with me. Either state it as your belief (i.e. "I believe God wrote the Bible" rather than "God wrote the Bible") or keep it to yourself.
Don't spout your personal beliefs as some universal truth. I have no problems with people's beliefs as long as they understand that their beliefs are not the universal truth, but just their personal beliefs for whatever they are worth.
You always have a spare word for the Church hierarchy claiming extraordinary things, and you yourself are doing the same thing. Good job, FK!
God ordered such specific missions of specific people at specific times
Prove it.
But just remember that the cruelty that you see in the Bible is directly from your own God, as HIS WORD says and stands by
Prove it.
I have seen articles that have analyzed the Koran and it appears to me that the fundamentalists have a case
That's your opinion.
You yourself have said that Jesus quoted from the Septuagint, which related this cruelty that disturbs you
Jesus quoted parts of the OT, those parts that related to His ministry. And as we have seen from enat's sad example, sometimes the authors would make things up and attribute it to Jesus!
In fact, He stood squarely behind all of these stories as matters of fact.
Those verses that He or the authors of the NT chose to attribute to Him, yes. His whole teaching, taken collectively, is not what the OT taught.
The difference in the passages you quote is that in those from the Bible they refer to God's actions or specific orders to specific people, whereas, in the one quote from the Koran, it appeared to give a general command to all people as they see fit. That's a huge difference
LOL! I am not even going to entertain this statement, FK. I have told you, there are pages and pages of God-ordered cruelty in the OT. Directly attributed to Him. Don't be a "lawyer." :)
There is no Christ that YOU believe in, in any of these. Your personal views of the Bible necessarily color your perception of who Christ IS
Maybe one day you will come down from that cloud in the sky and realize that you are just like me. :)
John is not misquoting the Old Testament, he is quoting Jesus who takes a real physical miracle of healing in the wilderness and draws from it its spiritual reality, "believe and live" just as He applied the sacrificial lamb motif to Himself. Later in his Gospel John will say that "this is written that you might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you might have life through His name". That the serpant healing was real is attested to some one thousand years later when Hezekiah in his revival destroys the bronze serpant because the people had come to worship it (2 Kings 18:4).
As to the "son of man" in Hebrew, the writer of Psalms 80:17-18 introduces one as seated on the right hand of God but the concept is brought into focus in the apocalyptic writings of Daniel 7 and the Similitudes of Eth. Enoch (chpts. 31-71). Jesus is just applying the apocalyptic messaniac title to Himself.
There is a writing (Urk. IV.1) from the period of Amenophis II, a Pharoah during the time the Hebrews were in Egypt (1450B.C.) that refers to the hapiru in its Egyptian form 'prw being present in Egypt. These hapiru were a nomadic tribe. Abraham was referred to as a Hebrew hapiru. Scholars like Albright, Bright, Noth, Pritchard and von Rad all attest to the accuracy of the Egyptian bondage, each from different theological positions.
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