Posted on 01/27/2008 7:56:14 PM PST by Manfred the Wonder Dawg
January 25, 2008
ESV Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
In recent days I have spent time in Lima and Sullana Peru and Mexico City and I have discovered that people by nature are the same. Man has a heart that is inclined to selfishness and idolatry. Sin abounds in the remotest parts of the land because the heart is desperately wicked. Thousands bow before statues of Mary and pray to her hoping for answers. I have seen these people stare hopelessly at Mary icons, Jesus icons, and a host of dead saints who will do nothing for them. I have talked with people who pray to the pope and say that they love him. I talked with one lady who said that she knew that Jesus was the Savior, but she loved the pope. Thousands bow before Santa Muerte (holy death angel) in hopes that she will do whatever they ask her. I have seen people bring money, burning cigarettes, beer, whiskey, chocolate, plants, and flowers to Santa Muerte in hopes of her answers. I have seen these people bowing on their knees on the concrete in the middle of public places to worship their idol. Millions of people come into the Basilica in Mexico City and pay their money, confess their sins, and stare hopelessly at relics in hope that their sins will be pardoned. In America countless thousands are chained to baseball games, football games, material possessions, and whatever else their heart of idols can produce to worship.
My heart has broken in these last weeks because the God of heaven is not honored as he ought to be honored. People worship the things that are created rather than worshiping the Creator. God has been gracious to all mankind and yet mankind has hardened their hearts against a loving God. God brings the rain on the just and unjust. God brings the beautiful sunrises and sunsets upon the just and unjust. God gives good gifts unto all and above all things he has given his Son that those who would believe in him would be saved. However, man has taken the good things of God and perverted them unto idols and turned their attention away from God. I get a feel for Jesus as he overlooked Jerusalem or Paul as he beseeched for God to save Israel. When you accept the reality of the truth of the glory of God is breaks your heart that people would turn away from the great and awesome God of heaven to serve lesser things. Moses was outraged by the golden calf, the prophets passionately preached against idolatry, Jesus was angered that the temple was changed in an idolatrous business, and Paul preached to the idolaters of Mars Hill by telling them of the unknown God.
I arrived back at home wondering how I should respond to all the idolatry that I have beheld in these last three weeks. I wondered how our church here in the states should respond to all of the idolatry in the world. What are the options? First, I suppose we could sit around and hope that people chose to get their life together and stop being idolaters. However, I do not know how that could ever happen apart from them hearing the truth. Second, I suppose we could spend a lifetime studying cultural issues and customs in hope that we could somehow learn to relate to the people of other countries. However, the bible is quite clear that all men are the same. Men are dead in sin, shaped in iniquity, and by nature are the enemies of God. Thirdly, we could pay other people or other agencies to go and do a work for us while we remain comfortably in the states. However, there is no way to insure that there will be doctrinal accuracy or integrity. If we only pay other people to take the gospel we will miss out on all of the benefits of being obedient to the mission of God. Lastly, we could seek where God would have us to do a lasting work and then invest our lives there for the glory of God. The gospel has the power to raise the dead in any culture and we must be willing to take the gospel wherever God would have us take it. It is for sure that our church cannot go to every country and reach every people group, so we must determine where God would have us work and seek to be obedient wherever that is.
It seems that some doors are opening in the Spanish speaking countries below us and perhaps God is beginning to reveal where we are to work. There are some options for work to be partnered with in Peru and there could be a couple of options in Mexico. The need is greater than I can express upon this paper for a biblical gospel to be proclaimed in Peru and Mexico. Oh, that God would glorify his great name in Peru and Mexico by using a small little church in a town that does not exist to proclaim his great gospel amongst a people who desperately need the truth.
I give thanks to the LORD for allowing me the privilege of going to these countries and broadening my horizons. The things that I have seen will be forever engraved upon my heart. I will long remember the pastors that I spent time with in Peru and I will never forget Adolfo who translated for me in Mexico. I will relish the time that I spent with Paul Washer and the others. When I think of church I will forever remember being on top of that mountain in Sullana at that church which had no electricity and no roof. I am convinced that heaven was looking down on that little church on top of that mountain and very few people on earth even know that it exist. Oh, God I pray that the things of this world will continue to grow dim and that God’s people will be caught up in his glorious presence.
Because of the truth: Pastor: J. Randall Easter II Timothy 2:19 "Our God is in heaven and does whatever He pleases."(Ps. 115:3) "He predestined us according to the good pleasure of His will."(Eph. 1:5) Those who have been saved have been saved for His glory and they are being made holy for this is the will of God. Are you being made holy? Spurgeon says, "If your religion does not make you holy it will damn you to hell."
This is a rather interesting comment. Don't we hear on the one hand that the Holy Spirit guides the Church to all truths? Now we hear He doesn't because men allows it? When precisely does the Holy Spirit guide the Church and when doesn't He? How do you know the pronouncements from Rome are from the Holy Spirit?
No, to the best of my recollection, you've never told me your church affiliation until today (and you probably would have reminded me of that during the half-dozen times I've asked for your demonination these past few days.)
Thank you for now telling us you are a "traditional Anglican" who "despises the term, Bible-believing Christians."
I never knew any Anglican who "despised" that term. So this is a first.
In fact, my father was a high "traditional Anglican," and he loved "Bible-believing Christians" so much he became a Bible-believing Presbyterian Christian.
I guesss it takes all kinds.
Augustine also said this:
AMEN!
The certainty with which Paul spoke those words should give us all great strength and comfort. Likewise the words of John and Jesus.
The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." -- John 3:34-36"For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the spirit by measure unto him.
But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." -- John 4:22-24"Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
Pyro to Kosta [Post #772] "Care to comment?"
Yes I do. First, common sense would have led Dr. E to write "an Orthodox" instead of "the Orthodox."
Second, common courtesy would have led Dr. E to include me in her reply because she was referring to me, simply because I am the only Orthodox Freeper with whom she had a discussion on this topic.
Third, she owes the rest of "the Orthodox" an apology for falsely accusing them of something none of them can be charged with.
Fourth, people actually holding academic and theological degrees, who are much more educated and knowledgeable when it comes to +Paul, have pointed to the fact that +Paul was particularly dear and near to the Gnostics (let's not forget Marcion as well) and that many of his writings carry concepts and terminology used by the Gnostics—beginning with his conversion on the way to Damascus onward.
An average bible reader could not tell a Gnostic "gospel" from a real one because both use the same terminology and style of writing, and sometimes the only thing that betrays a heretical text from the orthodox one is one key word used in a specific context in a verse.
Personally I don't believe +Paul was Gnostic, but I do believe that his way of thinking was akin to theirs and that probably a singificant number of his followers may have been Gnostics.
How interesting that you would agree with Mark that we are saved by our works. I would suggest the laundry list of scriptures presented are taken completely out of context. But, then again, I believe people are saved by the faith that comes from God.
Some say that water here means baptism. But that is unlikely since Christian baptism hadn't yet been instituted.
In fact, Christian baptism is being instituted in this very verse. This is what institutes Christian baptism, straight out of the mouth of the Savior.
If this verse did mean baptism, then the only kind that it could have been at that point was the baptism of repentance administered by John the Baptist
This is false. John 3:22ff makes it clear that Jesus' disciples were baptizing under his supervision (it is ambiguous on whether Jesus himself baptized; 3:22 says he did, 4:2 says he didn't, but they may not have been talking about exactly the same time period), and they were not administering the baptism of John the Baptist, because John says clearly in Jn 3:27-30 that Jesus' ministry is superior to his own.
It is my opinion that the water spoken of here means the water of the womb referring to the natural birth process.
Jesus is not really in the business of teaching obstetrics. But look at this sentence carefully. See the highlighted words?
In an earlier post, you wrote:
When your beliefs or doctrines are supported more by 'writtings of early Church fathers' then the Scriptures, you are at least making them equal to Scripture, if not elevating them to be more important then Scripture.
What about when your beliefs are supported mostly by the opinions of a website like CARM?
Aren't you doing precisely what you reject us for doing?
Concretely, consider this contrasting opinion about John 3:5:
"And He says, 'Unless a man be born again' -- and He adds the words 'of water and the Spirit, -- he cannot enter into the kingdom of God'. He that is baptized with water, but is not found worthy of the Spirit, does not receive the grace in perfection. Nor, if a man be virtuous in his deeds, but does not receive the seal by means of the water, shall he enter into the kingdom of heaven. A bold saying, but not mine, for it is Jesus who has declared it."
That's St. Cyril of Jerusalem, writing around AD 350 (Catechetical Lectures, No. 3, paragraph 4).
What makes your opinion, or CARM's, superior to, or more trustworthy than St. Cyril's? Why should I believe them, and reject him? How is CARM's opinion about Scripture any less a "tradition of men" than St. Cyril's? How is what you are doing any more "scriptural" than what we do?
Don't think that I'm picking on you in particular, BTW. This conundrum is present throughout Protestantism. For example, in the 1662 edition of the Anglican 39 Articles, we read:
"General Councils may not be gathered together without the commandment and will of Princes. And when they be gathered together, (forasmuch as they be an assembly of men, whereof all be not governed with the Spirit and Word of God,) they may err, and sometimes have erred, even in things pertaining unto God. Wherefore things ordained by them as necessary to salvation have neither strength nor authority, unless it may be declared that they be taken out of holy Scripture."
Being as I don't have to worry about the King's good men battering down my door on account of my Romish sympathies ;-), I will ask the obvious naughty question:
If councils "do err," and "have erred," where's the guarantee that the 39 Articles don't err? What's to guarantee that they don't err precisely in saying that councils err, for that matter?
As for their appeal to Scripture, that simply begs the question: who gets to decide, authoritatively, what Scripture means? "Unless it may be declared that they be taken out of holy Scripture" ... declared by whom? With what authority? And what if I disagree with his declaration?
The whole claim is simply a recipe for anarchy, which inevitably circles back on itself and does the same thing it accuses Catholics of doing: it goes to fallible men to decide what infallible Scripture is really telling the Church. The only real difference is that you choose your own "Pope", and mine is chosen for me.
Then prayer to Mary, such as the one Augustine wrote which I've posted to you before, is not heresy, or even a symptom of heresy?
Interesting.
Seeing that I am unaware that Trent has been repealed as FALSE I assume that we can still believe that the Churche's statements on justification still stand. And, that statement being that faith and works are "co-ordinate" sources of justification because a man must be made righteous in his own person. But, really, we need look no further than the Catholic's OWN definition which discusses exactly as I said, the transformation from unrighteousness to righteousness. This is why Catholics use the phrase habitus justificationis, the STATE or habit (literally) of justification. This is in his own person, not in the person of Christ. The person himself must be in a state of righteousness in order to be declared just by God, which the Catholic church at least, thankfully, does still attribute that solely to God.
AMEN! The heart of the reformation was redirecting the true meaning of justification away from men and works and to lay it entirely at the foot of the cross where Christ has paid the ransom for our sins in full.
This is the TRUTH: A man is declared just without works of the law. God himself meets His OWN demands for righteousness and then graciously gives man what is required. This is why, as Reformers, we can boldly declare that Christ became for us wisdom, righteousness, sanctification, and redemption. The Father made the Son who knew no sin to be sin for us that we might become the righteousness of God in Christ. It is in Christ we have our sole hope.
AMEN! I pray for God to give this assurance to those who are still locked in a battle with themselves to redeem themselves. Ain't going to happen.
God justifies the UNGODLY. This is the gospel. Righteousness shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification. We are Reformers and this is our message, the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. Rome is welcome to repent and join us in the glorious light of Christ and be no more a brother laboring under sin and falsehood.
AMEN!
To God be ALL the glory now and forever, world without end.
And you know that for certain how?
Further, while I don't have the posts at hand, and I'm sure not going to spend the time looking for them, there was some mixture of agreement by various Orthodox on your contention that "Paul was gnostic." Months and months of agreement.
You're correct, however, that your voice was chief among them.
Personally I don't believe +Paul was Gnostic, but I do believe that his way of thinking was akin to theirs and that probably a singificant number of his followers may have been Gnostics.
And that is why there actually are some things Bible-believing Christians agree with Rome over the objections of the Orthodox.
Such as Paul not leaning toward Gnosticism, and the correct understanding of the Filioque.
Oh please -- these backhanded slaps at scripture by implying that Paul might have been a gnostic are too much. Since Luke's Gospel was a favorite of Marcion's, then he too must have been a gnostic or had gnostic followers according to your reasoning. The same could be said of all the writers of scripture that the gnostics quoted.
This isn't about the way a person worship in one country verses another. We were talking about the Church allowing unChristian practices and not doing anything about it. There are no cultural differences. Americans traveling to lay flowers in a NJ tunnel is just as bad as Mexicans wanting to crawl for blocks to see a piece of cloth. It's all idolatry. Mankind is prone to it be it in a third world country or a developed country.
The only reason I stand aghast is simply because the scriptures tell me this is a big NO-NO. Yet I see a bunch of Christians doing it. I would equally stand aghast if I knew a bunch of Christians were out committing adultery. Wouldn't you feel compel to say something or do you think that would take a bit of "hubris"?
This isn't about Protestant/Catholic sensibilities. It's about violating God's commands. There is a certain irony in Catholics telling Protestants they are saved by works while at the same time violating the very commandments they claim they are trying to follow.
***When precisely does the Holy Spirit guide the Church and when doesn’t He? How do you know the pronouncements from Rome are from the Holy Spirit?***
The Holy Spirit guides the Church because Jesus says so. Individual men can do evil; the Holy Spirit of the Bible does no frogmarching. Yet, the Church prevails simply because it has the Holy Spirit as its guide.
All this is Scriptural. Peter failed. Paul fell short. Yet the Church prevails.
Given time Augustine would have seen what this false teaching of Mary has done to the Church.
Hear, hear!!!
And I have a valid driver's license.
***The fact that the Church slid into heresy happened well after Augustine.***
It becomes more and more fascinating. At what point did this blessed (for the Reformation) event happen?
***Augustine also said this:
Faith, then, as well in its beginning as in its completion, is God’s gift; and let no one have any doubt whatever, unless he desires to resist the plainest sacred writings, that this gift is given to some, while to some it is not given.
Would you agree?***
Google is not my friend in trying to track this down. Would you please provide a website for me to go to?
Now, now, Harley. You ought to know better.
Mark has never said that one is saved by one’s works. But Mark does say that one must have works.
I just follow the words of Matthew chapters 5 to 7 for inspiration. Sorry to burst the bubble.
And, no matter our numbers, we stand with the Lord, which makes us the majority.
post tenebras lux
AMEN!
"That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been" -- Ecclesiastes 3:15
And Old Reggie is correct. There is the hope, promise and future of America, born out of the Godly principles of the Reformation, and there is the sloth and decadence and inertia of Old Europe and South America.
I have hundreds of relatives in Scotland who are Bible-believing Presbyterians who know whom they have believed.
Scotland is not like Mexico and Peru where idolatry is practiced, as this thread informs us.
Absolutely correct. Augustine's Treatise on Predestination of the Saints was one of the very last treatise written by Augustine. He came to this understand late in his life and recalled many of his works which he recognized were in error. Less our Catholic friends say that this was a heretical doctrine, Augustine specifically references Cyprian, the great Church leader, as leading him to this truth.
I will say that I was listening to a message by Sproul on Romans yesterday. He mentioned how God wishes to illustrate to the world 1) His mercy and 2) His justice. With those who He has elected He shows forth His mercy. With those who He has not elected He shows His justice. People believe that God must be merciful to be just but they are mutually exclusive.
I bring this up because as I was going through Augustine's Treatise, I happened to noticed the same argument.
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