Posted on 01/27/2008 7:56:14 PM PST by Manfred the Wonder Dawg
January 25, 2008
ESV Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
In recent days I have spent time in Lima and Sullana Peru and Mexico City and I have discovered that people by nature are the same. Man has a heart that is inclined to selfishness and idolatry. Sin abounds in the remotest parts of the land because the heart is desperately wicked. Thousands bow before statues of Mary and pray to her hoping for answers. I have seen these people stare hopelessly at Mary icons, Jesus icons, and a host of dead saints who will do nothing for them. I have talked with people who pray to the pope and say that they love him. I talked with one lady who said that she knew that Jesus was the Savior, but she loved the pope. Thousands bow before Santa Muerte (holy death angel) in hopes that she will do whatever they ask her. I have seen people bring money, burning cigarettes, beer, whiskey, chocolate, plants, and flowers to Santa Muerte in hopes of her answers. I have seen these people bowing on their knees on the concrete in the middle of public places to worship their idol. Millions of people come into the Basilica in Mexico City and pay their money, confess their sins, and stare hopelessly at relics in hope that their sins will be pardoned. In America countless thousands are chained to baseball games, football games, material possessions, and whatever else their heart of idols can produce to worship.
My heart has broken in these last weeks because the God of heaven is not honored as he ought to be honored. People worship the things that are created rather than worshiping the Creator. God has been gracious to all mankind and yet mankind has hardened their hearts against a loving God. God brings the rain on the just and unjust. God brings the beautiful sunrises and sunsets upon the just and unjust. God gives good gifts unto all and above all things he has given his Son that those who would believe in him would be saved. However, man has taken the good things of God and perverted them unto idols and turned their attention away from God. I get a feel for Jesus as he overlooked Jerusalem or Paul as he beseeched for God to save Israel. When you accept the reality of the truth of the glory of God is breaks your heart that people would turn away from the great and awesome God of heaven to serve lesser things. Moses was outraged by the golden calf, the prophets passionately preached against idolatry, Jesus was angered that the temple was changed in an idolatrous business, and Paul preached to the idolaters of Mars Hill by telling them of the unknown God.
I arrived back at home wondering how I should respond to all the idolatry that I have beheld in these last three weeks. I wondered how our church here in the states should respond to all of the idolatry in the world. What are the options? First, I suppose we could sit around and hope that people chose to get their life together and stop being idolaters. However, I do not know how that could ever happen apart from them hearing the truth. Second, I suppose we could spend a lifetime studying cultural issues and customs in hope that we could somehow learn to relate to the people of other countries. However, the bible is quite clear that all men are the same. Men are dead in sin, shaped in iniquity, and by nature are the enemies of God. Thirdly, we could pay other people or other agencies to go and do a work for us while we remain comfortably in the states. However, there is no way to insure that there will be doctrinal accuracy or integrity. If we only pay other people to take the gospel we will miss out on all of the benefits of being obedient to the mission of God. Lastly, we could seek where God would have us to do a lasting work and then invest our lives there for the glory of God. The gospel has the power to raise the dead in any culture and we must be willing to take the gospel wherever God would have us take it. It is for sure that our church cannot go to every country and reach every people group, so we must determine where God would have us work and seek to be obedient wherever that is.
It seems that some doors are opening in the Spanish speaking countries below us and perhaps God is beginning to reveal where we are to work. There are some options for work to be partnered with in Peru and there could be a couple of options in Mexico. The need is greater than I can express upon this paper for a biblical gospel to be proclaimed in Peru and Mexico. Oh, that God would glorify his great name in Peru and Mexico by using a small little church in a town that does not exist to proclaim his great gospel amongst a people who desperately need the truth.
I give thanks to the LORD for allowing me the privilege of going to these countries and broadening my horizons. The things that I have seen will be forever engraved upon my heart. I will long remember the pastors that I spent time with in Peru and I will never forget Adolfo who translated for me in Mexico. I will relish the time that I spent with Paul Washer and the others. When I think of church I will forever remember being on top of that mountain in Sullana at that church which had no electricity and no roof. I am convinced that heaven was looking down on that little church on top of that mountain and very few people on earth even know that it exist. Oh, God I pray that the things of this world will continue to grow dim and that God’s people will be caught up in his glorious presence.
Because of the truth: Pastor: J. Randall Easter II Timothy 2:19 "Our God is in heaven and does whatever He pleases."(Ps. 115:3) "He predestined us according to the good pleasure of His will."(Eph. 1:5) Those who have been saved have been saved for His glory and they are being made holy for this is the will of God. Are you being made holy? Spurgeon says, "If your religion does not make you holy it will damn you to hell."
You just insist on being obtuse on this issue and peddle the double-origin heresy as "Catholic" doctrine. The Catholic Church does not teach doube-origin.
Apparently, you are incapable of differentiating the concepts that deal with eternal procession of the Spirit (as regards His existence) and the tempral procession of the Spirit (as regards the Divine Economy).
The Athanasian Creed...
The Atanasian Creed is not the official Creed of the Church. Only the Symbol of of Faith (the "Creed") is, and has been repeatedly cinfirmed as such (without the Filioque) from 381 until the 11th century.
Augustine...
Blessed Augustine does not have the authoirty to proclaim dogma. You are ignoring or, more likely have no concept of, where the authority rested in the Undivded Church.
Cyril of Alexandria
Again, the same applies to +Cyril as to +Augustine.
Council of Toledo...
Council of Toledo was a local council. It cannot change official dogma; it cannot make its own for the whole Church.
Claiming that the HS originates from the Father and the Son is heresy. It is heresy because it denies the monarchy of the Father and because it degrades the Spirit to a secondary role.
And, since the Creed was written in Greek, and since the Greek text uses the word which implies the origin, it is the correct version and the only correct version. All translated versions need to adjust their Creeds to reflect the same meaning. That's how the Church received the Symbol and that's how it was confirmed in every Ecumenical Council, and is still confirmed by the Orthodox Church..
Sure.
After Vatican II, there were sweeping changes to the appearance of many things about the church buildings.
I’ve referred to Protestant prayer barns inasmuch as they are simply plainer and set up more like a stage and audience rather than having an altar.
They started removing the tabernacle from front and center, sometimes moving it out of sight. They pulled the altars back and went from anonymous priest facing with the people to a Protestant style facing the people.
The church nearest to us doesn’t have kneelers; it only recently put a large crucifix over the altar.
A single holy water font big enough to float a boat in.
Yecch.
***Claiming that the HS originates from the Father and the Son is heresy. It is heresy because it denies the monarchy of the Father and because it degrades the Spirit to a secondary role.
And, since the Creed was written in Greek, and since the Greek text uses the word which implies the origin, it is the correct version and the only correct version. All translated versions need to adjust their Creeds to reflect the same meaning. That’s how the Church received the Symbol and that’s how it was confirmed in every Ecumenical Council, and is still confirmed by the Orthodox Church..***
Those who do not know their heresies are doomed to repeat them. Ad infinitum, to the ends of the earth in as many ways as there are different people. A very valuable function that the Church serves.
Nice explanation of the Filioque. It is as you say.
And has that pronunciation of dogma been rescinded in the Catholic church?
K.,
Certainly one cannot arbitrarily change the creed, just as one cannot arbitrarily change the flag. But what law cites whether one can expand the Creed? What authority issued such a law, that such a law should be ecumenical, even over-riding the patriarchs? And your analogy of changing a star to black doesn’t hold, because there is a flasehood therein: that the other white stars represent white people. There is no falsehood in the filioque.
>> If we allow such a change without proper authoirty (Congress, President), then anyone wold be free to add whatever color they choose to any number of stars, or change the number of stripes on the Flag, etc. <<
This presumes that there is no authority at all besides an ecumenical council; in one swoop, you invalidate not only the papacy, but also the Roman patriarchy.
I must disagree with your assertion that the doctrine of the trinity is corroded by the assertion that the Spirit proceeds from the Father, but not in the same manner from the Son. The Son is God *from* God, light *from* light, one in being with the Father, yet *begotten* by the Father. Each relation to the Holy Spirit is unique. If we acknowledge that the Son is begotten by the Father, and that the Father is not begotten by the Son, have we corroded the doctrine of the trinity?
In this manner, the New Advent encyclopedia isn’t wrong per se, but it fails to convey an expression which was not commonly formulated in its time.
I disagree with the Orthodox concern that somehow the Filioque Creed risks doctrinal confusion, because, as I wrote K, the creed plainly states that the Son is begotten of the Father.
That is because there is no "altar" in most Protestant churches. There is no need to sacrifice Christ again. His one-time perfect sacrifice was offered to and accepted by God at Calvary, per Hebrews.
Protestant churches have pulpits facing the congregation rather than altars facing away from the congregation. That's because church is where the word of God is to be preached.
And as for being austere, give me Cromwell's violent sweeping away of the altar's pagan accoutrement's any day. In church our minds and hearts are to be on His word and His Holy Spirit within us, not on the smells and bells and pretty pictures of man-made baubbles which crack under pressure and tarnish in the light of the Son.
Nice? lol
Ping to 944 and 945.
On target, sis. Would that more Protestant churches would actually preach and teach the Word instead of put on productions that entertain worldlings.
Just to cut to the chase: Is it possible for a person to act, of their own free will, contrary to God’s will?
http://www.prca.org/articles/infant_baptism.html
It is true that Reformed Baptists have a friendly disagreement with the rest of Reformers about infant baptism. However, in no case does any Reformer believe that water baptism has anything to do with salvation itself. The article affirms that salvation is by grace alone. That is the meat of the matter.
“smells and bells and pretty pictures,
of man-made baubbles which crack under pressure’
and tarnish in the light of the Son.”
I’m working on the melody line for these lyrics and will have them ready for opening night.
As much as I'd like to oblige, it takes more than a simple yes or no to answer that question.
What is "free will?" It's really a pretty meaningless concept. I don't have "free will" to flap my arms and fly. My will is contrained by a variety of things.
And what is "God's will?" In Scripture we read that God's will is perfect and thorough and that ultimately, one way or another, God accomplishes everything He desires.
He created everything. His being is the glue that holds the universe in place. Without God's will, nothing would exist...ever.
So how does something so poorly defined thwart the God of all creation? Nothing thwarts God ultimately, because He's God and He's sovereign over all things.
I enjoy the wording of the WCF. And while it's longer than a sentence or two, it certainly helped my understanding of God and man's place within God's creation...
II. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions;[4] yet has He not decreed anything because He foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.[5] III. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels[6] are predestinated unto everlasting life; and others foreordained to everlasting death.[7] IV. These angels and men, thus predestinated, and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.[8] V. Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to His eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of His will, has chosen, in Christ, unto everlasting glory,[9] out of His mere free grace and love, without any foresight of faith, or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving Him thereunto;[10] and all to the praise of His glorious grace.[11] VI. As God has appointed the elect unto glory, so has He, by the eternal and most free purpose of His will, foreordained all the means thereunto.[12] Wherefore, they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ,[13] are effectually called unto faith in Christ by His Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified,[14] and kept by His power, through faith, unto salvation.[15] Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.[16] VII. The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extends or withholds mercy, as He pleases, for the glory of His sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praised of His glorious justice.[17] VIII. The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care,[18] that men, attending the will of God revealed in His Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election.[19] So shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God;[20] and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the Gospel.[21]
Of God's Eternal Decree
I. God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass;[1] yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin,[2] nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.[3]
The footnotes refer to Scriptural proofs found at the site.
I realize it's not a simple answer, and God knows I tried to find holes it its Scriptural presentation of who God is. But as I read Scripture I realized more and more that God is really who He says He is and He really has "declared the end from the beginning."
At the moment God created all things He "knew" every path of every atom He created. If not, He's not omnicient.
And in God's "knowing" is our "doing."
So the Bible tells us after Adam all men are fallen and incapable of pleasing God. "Whereas anything not of faith is sin," says Paul. And faith is a gift from God to whom He will, given for His glory to those whom He has numbered among His family from before the foundation of the world, and not for any "good work" they might do but for and by and through the work of Christ on the cross alone.
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist." -- Colossians 1:16-17"For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
I believe that. "All things."
This understanding isn't necessary to know one is saved by Christ. But after believing both sides of this issue, I sure can state I am now far more comforted, invigorated, emboldened, and alive in Christ than when I thought I contributed to my obtaining God's mercy.
God's gift of merciful grace is free and unmerited. All of Him and none of me.
"(Christ Jesus) in whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will." -- Ephesians 1:11
And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them... Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word" -- John 17:9-10,20"I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
I should tell you I was kicked out of the last chorus I sang in. The chorus leader looked perturbed, slowly walked among 300 singers, finally stopped at me and bellowed,
"YOU! OUT!!!"
300.
Have a glorious and Godly weekend!
In Christ...Alone!
Yes, it did break my heart to watch some of the parents try to blame themselves, as you said. It also makes my blood boil. I sure pray that the RCC has taken all the steps necessary to prevent any of this from ever happening again.
If I accept what you say, it means that this thread, and all comments on it, are utterly meaningless. Nothing you say, no argument you make, can either increase or diminish the number of those saved. It's already set in stone. You have no free will -- you're a puppet, acting out some play written long ago.
And thus there is no such thing as sin. Because if sin can exist, it implies that people can act counter to what God has already ordained -- unless we take the rather odd position that God can ordain sin.
And yet the Bible assures us throughout that sin is real, and that it is a product of conscious rebellion against God.
And if sin is real, it implies (again) either that we have a choice; or that God causes "sin" to occur through exercise of His own will -- a contradictory proposition.
If God does not ordain sin, then it must be that we have freedom to choose to rebel against Him. And if we have freedom to choose "against", it implies the freedom to choose "for."
And thus we come to a logical justification of what the Bible, including Jesus Himself, makes clear: we can commit sins, and our sins matter; and our decisions regarding following God's commandments also matter -- just as Jesus said they do.
And, finally, we must deal with the concept of free will. You stated, At the moment God created all things He "knew" every path of every atom He created. If not, He's not omnicient.
But again: the Bible assures us that sin is real, and if we accept what you said, it means that God must have willed it to occur: He is somehow able to will something that by definition goes counter to His will. Were the sin not His will, "He's not omniscient."
Well, if God can ordain sin, then He can certainly do something easier than that, and less contradictory to boot: He can allow things to occur that He has not caused to happen. IOW, He can choose to allow us to make free will choices.
The problem here is that you're imposing your own view of eternity on God. It is impossible for us to imagine what a God's-eye view of eternity might look like; and we have absolutely no idea how God differentiates between knowing and causing.
So, you are in favor of a government violently seizing a faith community's property, destroying it, and taking away their freedom of religion? Thanks for clarifying that.
Ping to posts #946 and #957.
So, you are in favor of taking words and changing and twisting them to make them seem to say what you want so that the moderators will pull threads? Thanks for clarifying that.
All I’m going to say to you is see post #760.
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