Is Mary Worthy of Worship?

Forerunner ^ | June 2003 | David Grabbe

[wmfights]

...has slipped into idolatry, not necessarily willingly or with their own knowledge.

If we consider anything that removes our focus from God and not just an idol/statue as idolatry. In this definition a love of money would be a form of idolatry.

[Uri’el-2012]

The first pontiff of the Catholic Church was Pete

That is an incredibly ignorant statement !

I pray that one day you seek the creator of the universe: YHvH,
who brings salvation to all who call on His Name !

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua

[Wright Wing]

Couldn’t have said it better.

I noticed at the time of Pope Benedict’s election that this may be a “Christian” nation, it is far from Catholic. Those who do not practice Catholicism or try to apply “American” ideology fail miserably when trying to understand or explain away Catholic faith.

[Huber]

This is a sadly misinformed article. Twain’s ranking is ridiculous and could best be characterized as an example of the wry satire for which he is known. A simple reading of any serious Anglican, Catholic or Orthodox work on Mariology would address all of the mischaracterizations in the article.

It is unfortunate that the author based all of his arguments on flawed assumptions.

[big'ol_freeper]

I seek Him every day.

I am sorry you are lost but sincerely pray you may find your way home to His Church where all Christians belong.

I would highly recommend you spend a good long time looking at His Church: Catholics Come Home

As I said I will pray for you that the fog of heresy be lifted from you and that His Holy Will be done in your life.

[AnalogReigns]

Precise language, not slick...I’m not trying to fool anyone, merely trying to distinguish religious art (which is fine & good) used in instruction, verses art used to worship. This is the same distinction Exod. 20:4,5 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or serve them...” makes in the 10 Commandments between art, and an idol. The ancient Jews were NOT anti-representative art, the old Temple was full of it...JUST not of God, and not used to worship. The central object used in worship actually was the Ark—always hidden from view—containing the 10 Commandments and topped with 2 (ironically enough) statues of Angels KNEELING before God (kind of un-idols, in reality).

I do believe that trying to communicate to anyone who has died —no matter how holy a life they lived, is wrong. Why? The only example we have of communicating with a dead holy person is in I Samuel 28, when the evil king Saul used a witch to call up the holy prophet Samuel. So we only have one (very bad) example of communication between someone who is alive on earth with someone who has died.

2ndly, is that it is useless. Why? It’s fine to ask your friends or your mother or your priest to pray for you, as they can communicate with you, and they can communicate with God in prayer.

There is however utterly no indication in the bible that we are able to communicate with those who have died. Even in the bad example above it took a witch to communicate with Samuel—and such necromancy is completely condemned in scripture. I don’t think Roman Catholics guilty of necromancy, it is just that Mary (or St. Catherine, or St. So&so), can’t hear you—and they’re not supposed to. God always hears us, and in his mercy, perhaps he hears prayers to saints and answers some of them...since He knows His people are needy and such prayers are done in ignorance.

Again I challenge you though, if prayers to saints in heaven are possible and are so important, why not a word about it in the foundational documents of the church, that is the bible?

[Petronski]

Who’s Marion?

The Librarian!

[joseph20]

"I do believe that trying to communicate to anyone who has died —no matter how holy a life they lived, is wrong. Why? The only example we have of communicating with a dead holy person is in I Samuel 28, when the evil king Saul used a witch to call up the holy prophet Samuel. So we only have one (very bad) example of communication between someone who is alive on earth with someone who has died."

Well then you have a problem not just with Catholicism but with mainstream Protestantism. Praying to loved ones that have passed away and are presumed to be in heaven is a common thing among protestants. Why don't you go challenge the people in your own camp about that first, before coming over here to the Catholics and challenging them?

[Petronski]

In the judgment of all non-Roman Catholic Christians in the west about the Roman church for 500 years has been YES...

Prove it.

[Petronski]

By Jove I think you’ve got it!

[thefrankbaum]

There is however utterly no indication in the bible that we are able to communicate with those who have died. Even in the bad example above it took a witch to communicate with Samuel—and such necromancy is completely condemned in scripture. I don’t think Roman Catholics guilty of necromancy, it is just that Mary (or St. Catherine, or St. So&so), can’t hear you—and they’re not supposed to. God always hears us, and in his mercy, perhaps he hears prayers to saints and answers some of them...since He knows His people are needy and such prayers are done in ignorance.

I posted an answer to this above on this thread. See posts 42, 58, and 81. In the Psalms, the author cries and "prays" (ie, asks) to angels in Heaven. He did not get ahold of any righteous dead because Heaven was closed until the veil was torn. Jesus conquered death - those who believe in Him and live righteous lives do not die! Thus, we are not "communicating with the dead."

[AnalogReigns]

Praying to loved ones that have passed away and are presumed to be in heaven is a common thing among protestants.

Umm, I'm afraid you are mistaken. Please name one major Protestant denomination which allows for praying TO the dead?

Certain Anglo-Catholics pray to saints, however, they would also vigorously deny being Protestant. Other Anglicans and perhaps some Lutherans would pray for the dead, however, that is quite different than praying to them.

[papertyger]

I believe only the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are holy, not Mary.

Matthew 4:5 holy city
Matthew 24:15 holy place
Matthew 25:31 holy angels
Luke 1:70 holy prophets
Romans 16:16 holy kiss
Ephesians 2:21 holy temple
Ephesians 3:5 holy apostles
1 Thessalonians 5:27 holy brethren
1 Timothy 2:8 holy hands
2 Timothy 1:9 holy calling
2 Timothy 3:15 holy scriptures
1 Peter 2:5 holy priesthood
1 Peter 2:9 holy nation
1 Peter 3:5 holy women
2 Peter 1:18 holy mount
2 Peter 1:21 man: holy men
2 Peter 2:21 holy commandment
2 Peter 3:11 in holy conversation
Jude 20 holy faith
Revelation 21:10 holy Jerusalem

Anything else you'd like to give us the benefit of your expertise on?

I also don't believe Mary was God's mother.

So which are you denying, that Mary gave birth to Jesus, or that Jesus is God Incarnate?

That's my criticism, and it's based on the above quote, which I believe to be integral to the Catholic religion.

Hmmm. I wonder if there is a term for someone who criticizes people for that which their utter ignorance is brutally obvious?

[AnalogReigns]

Yes, saints are alive in Heaven. However, I come back to the same point, if they can hear us pray, and, we are helped greatly in such prayers, why not a word about it in the New Testament?

It would seem Saints Peter, Paul, John, Luke, Mark and James were remiss in ignoring such a great resource! s/

As for me and my house we’ll worship and pray to God alone, by the power of the Holy Spirit, only through the merits of His Son!

[thefrankbaum]

"No, you have approached Mount Zion and the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and countless angels in festal gathering, and the assembly of the firstborn enrolled in heaven, and God the judge of all, and the spirits of the just made perfect, and Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and the sprinkled blood that speaks more eloquently than that of Abel." - Heb. 12:22-24

And, I know you don't recognize it as an authority, but, from the very beginning of the Church saintly intercession has been taught. I can go find the writings of the Fathers if you like. The teachings of God are not solely written. They are oral, and they can be known through reason. You and I, I suspect, disagree here.

[AnalogReigns]

I am familiar with all different sorts of religions and I do not think that the Catholic veneration of Mary even comes remotely close to goddess worship.

And you are a Roman Catholic, or a "token atheist"?

But can recognize a duck? (see post #56 above)

[Petronski]

You are being asked “Would you like to play The Game?”

[papertyger]

why not a word about it in the New Testament?

There's no need for it in the New Testament. It's in God's Word through Holy Tradition.

[AnalogReigns]

The Duck Test:

From a Romanist website...

[Petronski]

Did you know that the Ten Commandments do not appear in the New Testament?

Then again, perhaps when one is “ELECT” (with or without the vanity plates), there is no longer any use for them (!?!).